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Author Topic: Aos 3 -> aos 4  (Read 43642 times)

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #134 on: June 04, 2011, 02:09:55 PM »
Quote from: drHirudo;642329
Blah, blah, blah. There are hardware requirements. Some games does not run on 512 KB Amigas. Probably they are not Amiga games by your definition.
Except that "classic Amiga" has always had a fairly definite definition to the community, to wit: original Amiga machines (1000-4000) running on 68k. Labeling another version of a PPC-only OS as "classic" is just another example of how tuned out from the community Hyperion are.
Quote from: drHirudo;642329
Defensive? I point obvious mistakes that are always brought to the forums, but as long as you have your AmigaOS 3 machine sitting next to your PC or Mac, I guess you don't need to upgrade.
Nope, guess I don't! :D
Quote from: HotRod;642349
Oh look, there are sheep here as well :-)
"OS4: even sheep won't buy it!"
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

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Offline buzz

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #135 on: June 04, 2011, 02:27:17 PM »
Quote from: drHirudo;642179
Wait, SIDs tunes are replayed nice with DeliTracker and EaglePlayer on classic Amiga machine in software, without the extra cost of SID chip.

They are replayed "ok", but playsid misses filter emulation etc. i recommend you try sidplay-residfp if you are going to emulate the sid.

as for the argument about moving from classic etc, i have moved. i last got a z68 mb with core i5 cpu, and a free os that works well for me. the amiga was never just about the "os" to me anyway. that came much later. it was about the games/demos etc.

I have a ppc mac mini here, and if morphos was available for a significantly cheaper price or free, I would no doubt have a play with it on the mac. same for os4. but they are imho overpriced, and developed in a way that doesn't interest me (private source and clubs/teams).
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 02:33:09 PM by buzz »
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2011, 02:46:11 PM »
Quote from: HotRod;642382
WTF was that?! Ehm... I asked because I wondered why and that was it? I know the history so I don't need a lesson. What do you want me to understand? I wonder why some are still using AOS 3.

I think you read things that aren't there.


The "history lesson" is part of the explanation to why some are still using Amiga OS 3.x. It would have been equally relevant if you would have asked "Why haven't you jumped on the AROS train yet" or "Why haven't you jumped on the MorphOS train yet", and the answer would be the same: They want to use Amigas as they always have. They want the Amiga hardware, they want the Amiga OS that runs on it and maximizes the use of it. And they want to evolve the OS by patches and add-ons, updated stuff, etc. Isn't there some kind of effort of modernizing Amiga OS 3 by using components from AROS? I think I recall something about that. This will increase as soon as Natami gets here (if it ever gets here). A new, completely unofficial quasi-version of AmigaOS 68k is likely to evolve (what I called "AOS+" above), containing a mixture of real Amiga OS 3.x components and new ones from AROS and the Natami teams (like: "First install OS 3.x, then install this service pack on top of it that replaces, updates and adds new features. Then reboot!").

Some Amiga 68k users are happy with the way things are, some wants to expand and modernize the HW by add-ons that still comes from Individual Computer (and Elbox?). Natami will evolve the Amiga 68k. It won't bring it "up to date", but I don't think that matters to these people, they are more into the technology and retro hobby aspect of things. And that is my point.

MorphOS, AROS and OS4 is a completely different thing that I don't think appeal to these people. The goal for these three OS's are more to be able to do real 2011 things; like playing 2011 level media files, use the Internet in a 2011 kind of way, etc, but in an Amiga environment, and still being able to use most of the Amiga applications. One of the most central and fundamental goals of all three of these OS's was about "breaking free" from the old Amiga hardware and its limitations in a modern era context.

But even then OS4 is probably the least appealing of the three:

- AROS main feature is that it runs on x86 and other platforms.

- MorphOS is the one that has evolved the furthest, by far; it has the best features, the most features, the best "Amiga standards" built in, the best Amiga compatibility, the best performance, and although its bound to PPC hardware, it runs on extremely cheap, mainstream HW of very high quality and is as powerful as the PPC desktop HW ever became. In that sense, MorphOS certainly represents the very peak of Amiga evolution this far.

- OS4 has less features, poorer features, the "left over" Amiga standards built in, Amiga compatibility has never been really prioritized (which shows), performance comparisons between OS4 and MorphOS shows that OS4 comes far behind, and its hardware base consists of low volume custom HW with *risky* long-time support situation; the Sam is severely overpriced and underspecced, the X1000 will be even more overpriced (if it ever gets here, which looks more and more doubtful).

In fact, OS4's main attraction is its access to the trade marks "amigaone" and "amigaos4". And evidently this is very important to a certain breed of people, and they are probably the ones that gets the most confused when Amiga Inc starts awarding trade mark licenses to the left and right, they are the loud ones screaming "foul" as soon as a Commodore USA thread pops up in the forums.

But the rest of us; the MorphOS users, the AROS users, heck even the OS3 "classic" users that are hoping on some kind of Amiga evolution through Natami and AROS, has gotten over the trade mark bullshit a long time ago. We left that behind. I'd even say that most of us are tired of all the crap that surrounds it. We don't need Ben Herman's or Bill McEwen's approval of what to like and use as our "Amiga". We are more interested in the technology, the features, and having a decent bang for the buck ratio. And this is where OS4 fails, in every single point of measurement.

The "NG" OS's are obviously not of very big interest to the Amiga 68k crowd, but even if they were, then OS4 would still be the most irrelevant of all three of them. It's the one being furthest away. It's *not* like there is a logical "Amiga OS 3" -> "OS4" upgrade path, despite the somewhat confusing naming of the products, and that's why the formulation of your initial question was a little funny. Heck, I'd say that OS4 is completely redundant to anyone not interested in "amigaone" and "amigaos4" trade mark stickers.

Hope you understand better now.

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #137 on: June 04, 2011, 02:54:01 PM »
Quote from: HotRod;641870
Hello!

I'd like to know why people using AOS 3 doesn't jump on the AOS 4 train? What is holding you back exactly? I've been an a4k user myself and wasn't sure when I bought my amigaone but I haven't regret it ever and it really is amiga in every single way but upgraded.

From my point-of-view I don't see much point.

The main things I do with my Amiga are play retro games and watch demos and I also get a kick out of seeing what an old 1200 Amiga can be pushed into doing with a few choice expansions (Eg playing Sam & Max).

I wouldn't get any of the same kind of buzz out of running such retro software on a 'new' OS4 machine and there's really nothing there that interests me much software/hardware/OS.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 02:59:27 PM by NovaCoder »
Life begins at 100 MIPS!


Nice Ports on AmiNet!
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #138 on: June 04, 2011, 02:55:42 PM »
Quote from: piru;642266
hmm can't be that: Perhaps you mean this linux^h^h^h^h^hamiga app called timberwolf?

What's up with this "dll hell" anyway? Doesn't sound very "amiga" to me.

This is just wrong. This is not amiga. I'll take os and apps that use proper amiga libraries and not some kind of half-as*ed shared object implementation borrowed from linux (on os4 they aren't even shared, each opener gets their own copy.. Fail!). It just can't work without package manager with proper dependency system. This will end badly: "its just a case of duplicating the listed sobjs in the sobjs drawer and renaming them to match. Once you have done this try again." or "just make a duplicate copy of it and rename the duplicate to the above and repeat with the other files which are missing.".

Proper shared libraries with per-opener static data are well possible as is proven by numerous such libraries existing in for example in amigaos 3.x and morphos. Why amigaos4 "designers" chose this lazy route with non-shared shared objects is beyond me.


O M G ! ! !

:rolleyes:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #139 on: June 04, 2011, 03:01:39 PM »
Quote from: obscurepanic;642292
I hope some developers make a new m68k microprocessor. I still like single-core CISC. :hammer:


I think it will be called 68050 (or was it 68070?), when/if it ever gets ready. Check the Natami's website... :)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #140 on: June 04, 2011, 03:12:42 PM »
Quote from: Piru;642350
Regardless during those 18 months we've:
  • Released MorphOS 2.5
  • Released MorphOS 2.6
  • Released MorphOS 2.7
  • Released MorphOS with support for eMac (various models)
  • Released MorphOS with support for PowerMac G4s (various models)
  • Showed preview of ongoing work for both PowerBook G4 and PowerMac G5 versions of MorphOS.
Not fast enough for you?

Who have seen it and judge the situation objectively see the truth indeed: MorphOS beats OS4 on the same HW on every area. Whining how "OS4 is not optimized for Pegasos 2" is getting a bit old now. OS4 still has no USB2 and lacks the proper 3D support, not to mention basic things such as proper support for AltiVec unit, working FAT, NTFS, ext2 or XFS filesystems or a proper console. I see no serious competition.


OS 4.1.3 is coming any year now...
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #141 on: June 04, 2011, 03:21:14 PM »
It's quite simple OS 3.x is the best there is... :)

Everything else (cept for AROS 68K, if I can get it to work...:() are failed wannabes for hardware that's in most case's got as much in common with a real Amiga as I have with the ruddy English langauge... :)

PS: Don't bother telling me that OS4.x runs on real Amiga hardware (it may do if you have a PPC & GFX board) but it's still about as useful as a fart in a poke... ;)
 

Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #142 on: June 04, 2011, 03:25:21 PM »
Quote from: Fab;642346
You're right about that. I really should change the name, and i even know which one i'll use. I've just been too lazy to change it.



For a start, OWB MorphOS comes with several builtin features that firefox only has as extensions or not at all (to my knowledge):
- webinspector (firebug extension on firefox)
- ad/content blocker (adblockplus or whatever on firefox)
- userscript support (greasemonkey on firefox)
- on demand or automatic session loading/saving (sessionplus or so on firefox?)
- per-url settings (spoofing, images, plugins, ...) like ibrowse
- network activity monitoring
- per-tab private browsing
and a couple others like that...

And about automation, userscripts allow to do quite a lot in that regard. And the REXX support would as well for other aspects (i doubt timberwolf has any kind of REXX port, by the way (not that it would be hard to add)).



On the other hand, you don't always have to enforce the latest OS version for nothing (and avoid being as annoying as OSX in that regard). Latest OWB MorphOS version still runs on MorphOS 1.4 (including classic, even if memory and cpu requirements don't really make it really useful on such hw) with some features disabled.


Sorry if its off-topic, but does OWB MorphOS have a user-agent switcher?  some websites I use often complain and disallow access unless you are using a "correct" browser.
 

Offline drHirudo

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #143 on: June 04, 2011, 03:30:20 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;642402
OS 4.1.3 is coming any year now...

As soon as one of the main MOS devs said that he would rather reboot into another OS than having X, Y, Z, I lost interest in purchasing powerful Mac hardware to run the amiga alike OS.

Yeah, I know they don't care.

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #144 on: June 04, 2011, 03:32:56 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;642405
Sorry if its off-topic, but does OWB MorphOS have a user-agent switcher?  some websites I use often complain and disallow access unless you are using a "correct" browser.


Are you talking about spoofing as another browser? Of course, Fab's browser can do that, with different settings for different URL's even!

(From above: "- per-url settings (spoofing, images, plugins, ...) like ibrowse")
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline number6

Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #145 on: June 04, 2011, 03:34:33 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;642394

- MorphOS the best "Amiga standards" built in, the best Amiga compatibility,

- OS4 has less features, poorer features, the "left over" Amiga standards built in, Amiga compatibility has never been really prioritized (which shows),


Oh? So MorphOS does display Ham now, like OS4.x?
Last time this was discussed on Morphzone it did not.
Hardly an earthshattering limitation, but still...to basically say it was not an Amiga standard or part of Amiga compatibility is just silly.

source

#6
 

Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2011, 03:57:07 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;642407
Are you talking about spoofing as another browser? Of course, Fab's browser can do that, with different settings for different URL's even!

(From above: "- per-url settings (spoofing, images, plugins, ...) like ibrowse")

D'oh!  well then, now I know :D

And yes, spoofing, although I usually connotate "spoofing" as a negative act, whereas me trying to access my bank and being told by their POS website "We only support IE" makes me hot under the collar.
 

Offline Fab

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #147 on: June 04, 2011, 04:04:00 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;642411
D'oh!  well then, now I know :D

And yes, spoofing, although I usually connotate "spoofing" as a negative act, whereas me trying to access my bank and being told by their POS website "We only support IE" makes me hot under the collar.


In fact, spoofing (as well as other settings like plugins, images, ...) can be controlled at 3 different priority levels, from the highest to lowest :
- from pulldown menu
- on a per-url basis (with pattern support). Useful when you want to spoof a site as ipad and disable Flash, to get HTML5 video, for instance. But there are many other interesting possibilities.
- globally in owb preferences

And this is basically how Ibrowse handled it too (and it was a good thing to take inspiration from :)).
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #148 on: June 04, 2011, 04:12:27 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;642411
D'oh!  well then, now I know :D

And yes, spoofing, although I usually connotate "spoofing" as a negative act, whereas me trying to access my bank and being told by their POS website "We only support IE" makes me hot under the collar.


:)

Indeed "spoofing" is very useful, and the key to access some online functions that's out there, like uploading videos to utube. Or using the online version of Microsoft Office under MorphOS. :)

Fab's browser is *a real* browser, that you *can use for real*. No bullshit. It was really funny to see this MorphOS browser displaying CSS3 better than Internet Explorer (until IE9 was released). :)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Aos 3 -> aos 4
« Reply #149 from previous page: June 04, 2011, 04:58:11 PM »
From my viewpoint:

The hardware is unaffordable, and the compatibility reports that I have seen are not encouraging. It is more difficult than it should be to do OS3->OS4 ports, much more hassle than to do eg. OS3->MOS ports. Some kind of AmigaOne emulator so that OS4 can be run under x86 would mean a lot more people could run it. And there's a lot of bugs in OS4 yet to be fixed, and it still doesn't implement the full OS3.9 API (eg. the "effect" command in Installer, the Alert() function, etc.). Plus it seems bloated, I read somewhere 96Mb minimum RAM just to get the thing booted, that's crazy!

I do want it to succeed. It's just the unaffordability and technical shortcomings that are holding me back from buying one. Plus the vitriolic hostility towards OS3 users that is shown by some OS4 users and developers is a definite drawback, why would one want to join a user community like that?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 05:03:51 PM by Minuous »