Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...

[XDelusion]

Bloodline: Is it as good as WorkBench 3.1 or better? Also, how's it work with the resources? How does it run on a stock A600? Is it fully compatible, is the speed I'd expect from WB 3.1 intact, or would I need something more like an 030?

Likewise, how does it handle with something like a 50to80Mhz 060 with 32 to 64Mb or RAM?

[Franko]

@ Bloodline

Even though I voted for AROS before your first post in this thread where you clarified for me about "burning it to a ROM", I have to say after reading all the post here that I am now a true believer in AROS being the way forward for future Amiga platforms...

Still prefer the 68k side of things but with the likes of NatAmi hopefully around the corner then I believe AROS would be easier to implement on such a machine and would indeed be the best option for it...

As for MorphOS, still say it sux big time, looks far too much like these Crapple Macs I'm using and they suck big time too... (sorry just couldn't resist that wee dig)...

[Duce]

Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane.  AROS is pretty decent once you find the "magic solution" of what it works on HW wise, but I've never seen a more finicky mess of an OS.

Box 1 - AMD X2 4200/7800 card.  Aros doesn't see the SATA side at all.  Try and run off IDE HD's, AROS just locks up.

Box 2 - far newer machine, Intel quad core extreme, nvidia 9800.  Gfx card issues with AROS, but SATA works fine.

Put gfx card from box 1 into box 2, box 2 works half assed, but has wild banding and screenmode issues.  Give up, go buy beer and throw the CD away for another 6 months.

AROS 68k seems interesting, but still comes back to the fact I don't like using legacy Amiga HW, simply due to its' age.  Morph and OS4 both work fine for my Amiga purposes, Morph having a bit more "polish" to it.

[vidarh]

Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane.  AROS is pretty decent once you find the "magic solution" of what it works on HW wise, but I've never seen a more finicky mess of an OS.

Box 1 - AMD X2 4200/7800 card.  Aros doesn't see the SATA side at all.  Try and run off IDE HD's, AROS just locks up.

Box 2 - far newer machine, Intel quad core extreme, nvidia 9800.  Gfx card issues with AROS, but SATA works fine.

Put gfx card from box 1 into box 2, box 2 works half assed, but has wild banding and screenmode issues.  Give up, go buy beer and throw the CD away for another 6 months.

It's only a few years since Linux was pretty much in the same situation with. It's down to getting enough developers to get more driver support, which will take time.

In the meantime, yes, you need to be careful about what hardware you pick *or* run AROS Linux hosted without a windows manager (which will make the AROS window run without any window borders etc.), which will run everywhere Linux will.

AROS 68k seems interesting, but still comes back to the fact I don't like using legacy Amiga HW, simply due to its' age.

Well, Natami and FPGA Arcade will take away the "age" issue.

[XDelusion]

As for MorphOS, still say it sux big time, looks far too much like these Crapple Macs I'm using and they suck big time too... (sorry just couldn't resist that wee dig)...

Aghh, that's just the eye candy. I'm not a big fan of it either so I turn it off unless I'm showing it off to a friend that depends on Eye candy in order to enjoy their OS experience. It makes me feel like I'm treating MorphOS like a cheap whore. :/

I should remember to take some screen grabs of my MorphOS desktop when I get home. It looks and behaves like how you'd expect Work Bench to behave, except for more polished and again, very friendly with Amiga software that does not make direct calls to the Amiga hardware, which again results in us all depending upon emulation, old hardware, or Natami and the other related project who's name eludes me right now.

Now of course the ever so expensive Amiga X1000 is supposed to featured that extra processor which I read somewhere could be used in place of the original Amiga chip set. So am I to presume that this means that in the future Amiga OS 4.x wil be able to run all or nearly all Amiga native software, without emulation, even it it does depend upon the original chip set?

If this becomes the case, or if we could get a PC/Mac G4 compatible PCI card with Amiga chip set clones on it for use with our Work Bench variant of choice, I'd be sold! I'd save money, and make it happen!

[HenryCase]

Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane.

Who claimed that? I haven't seen such a comment here, no one in the know about AROS would make such a comment. AROS is just like any other OS; you pick the hardware it works with. Looks to me like you're just trying to stir up an argument.

[vidarh]

Bloodline: Is it as good as WorkBench 3.1 or better? Also, how's it work with the resources? How does it run on a stock A600? Is it fully compatible, is the speed I'd expect from WB 3.1 intact, or would I need something more like an 030?

Likewise, how does it handle with something like a 50to80Mhz 060 with 32 to 64Mb or RAM?

It's very much a work in progress and full of debugging stuff and lacking lots of optimization still, and it's still slow. If you want to help send bug reports, try it.

Otherwise hold off at least 6-9 months and ask again - it went from not working to a decent state in about that time.

[Forcie]

Amiga apps and games will NEVER be compatible with AROS unless re-written and obviously only a small percent of those programs will ever get re-written. That being so, AROS (in regards to the retro Amiga experience), must and can only take place via emulation. Thus AROS's main highlight is the fact that it is a means to emulate Amiga within an Amiga like environment, free of the presence of Linux or Windows. That's my current attraction.

MorphOS on the other hand, can run MANY Amiga programs without emulation, and at speeds that far surpass emulation speeds even on high end AROS compatible hardware. This is an edge that AROS will not have until PC hardware begins to make giant strides in speed at an affordable (disposable) price. Though, for the time being, AROS does have the JIT edge, which MorphOS currently suffers without for it really needs it to be able to play that pile of software which can not be run natively under MorphOS. Of course JIT is being ported to PPC so time will change all...

I am sorry, but you are just wrong on so many levels.

First and foremost, ALL the solutions you mention have to emulate 68k software if not running on a Motorola 68000-based architecture! That means all of them except AROS-68k. MOS and OS4 do not run on 68k processors. AROS-68k however, runs Amiga software natively.

MorphOS and OS4 are both _emulating_ the 68k programs. The difference is that you do not notice the 68k emulators, called Petunia and Trance respectively. But to say that it is "without emulation" is just plain ignorant.
Now, AROS also has a "transparent emulator" project going on, called Emumiga. It is not done yet, but to say that it never will happen is wrong. When it is done, AROS will have exactly the same transparent emulation capabilities as OS4 and MOS, if not better.

These transparent emulators are only useful for system friendly software making AmigaOS API calls only. If the software uses the Amiga chipset, one has to use a more complete emulator in the form of UAE. Here AROS has the edge. OS4 and MOS both have to run an UAE emulator instance detached from the system, pretty much in the same way as when emulating real Amigas on Windows or Mac OS X. It sits in its own window, replicating the screen of the emulated Amiga, and does not interact with the host operating system.

AROS, on the other hand, has something called Janus-UAE, which allows all the Amiga chipset dependent software to be integrated into the system pretty much in the same way as with Petunia or Trance. That is, the HW banging software can use native AROS windows and screens, it can use AROS skins/decorations/gadgets on the 68k software, it can share the clipboard with AROS, screendrag etc. It is integrated in the same ways as modern Virtual Machine software uses "coherence" mode with the host operating system. It is a very cool solution, and maybe OS4 and MOS will get something like it in the future too.

So, I think you have to rethink your stance on "emulation", "compatible" and "NEVER". I am very happy that you are interested in the Natami project, though.

[Franko]

Aghh, that's just the eye candy. I'm not a big fan of it either so I turn it off unless I'm showing it off to a friend that depends on Eye candy in order to enjoy their OS experience. It makes me feel like I'm treating MorphOS like a cheap whore. :/

Guess I'm not really being fair on MorphOS with some of my comments about it (but then who said anything in life is fair)...

I think, no in fact I KNOW my views about MorphOS have been tainted by that broken down android made from abandoned PC parts they call Piru who's about as humourless as being asked to step into the showers at Belsen...

So I'll lay off dissing MorphOS as I have said my only experience of it was a very old version that runs on my A1200 & BlizzardPPC and that put me off it right from the start but Piru just put me of it for being Piru...

[WolfToTheMoon]

I do agree that MOS is currently the best Amiga-like OS...

It looks the best, it's the most stable one, the only that *could* support things like SMP and memory protection out of the box. However, hardware future is uncertain, it's closed development and QBox development has been abandoned/delayed. That's why I chose AROS even if MOS is much more advanced.
If MOS would be able to run on ARM or x86 devices then it would be a different matter alltogether.

[XDelusion]

WolftoMoon: I was just about to say something about ARM. That would be the wisest of moves the MorphOS team could make right now, at least as far as I can see. Heck even the next version of Windows is going to run on it. I'd say it's here to stay and the future of x86 is perhaps coming to a close...

[Piru]

I am sorry, but you are just wrong on so many levels.

And so are you.

Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.

Now, AROS also has a "transparent emulator" project going on, called Emumiga. It is not done yet, but to say that it never will happen is wrong. When it is done, AROS will have exactly the same transparent emulation capabilities as OS4 and MOS, if not better.

I haven't seen much progress from this project lately. The project has seen several refactoring/rewrite cycles already and so far hasn't actually run much 68k apps. Latest download release is from 1 year ago. I wouldn't go as far as to predict that the project is in trouble, but it certainly doesn't seem to be progressing well.

AROS, on the other hand, has something called Janus-UAE, which allows all the Amiga chipset dependent software to be integrated into the system pretty much in the same way as with Petunia or Trance.

Neither Petunia nor Trance do any kind of integration, they're just JIT engines. Janus-UAE doesn't do what OS4 and MorphOS do, far from it. Janus-UAE's integration is very limited whereas OS4 and MorphOS do no integration at all: Everything runs natively inside the host OS. No integration is required. Janus-UAE can never be as complete as running the app directly on the host.

It is a very cool solution, and maybe OS4 and MOS will get something like it in the future too.

Personally I doubt it. There are very few applications that both hit HW and would still benefit from using native screens or windows.

Of course if someone feels like creating such UAE for MorphOS or OS4, sure go ahead. Personally I don't see the point in that though.

[XDelusion]

I had a feeling you would be posting soon.

And yes, considering the amount of productivity apps that run without emulation on MorphOS, an integration of UAE with the OS would seem pointless at this time.

[Kesa]

@ piru. You are not going to respond to Frankos personal attack on you? C'mon, you can't let him get away with that! :hammer:

[Forcie]

Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.

Neither Petunia nor Trance do any kind of integration, they're just JIT engines.

Ok, so you are picky with terms. So, lets replace every mention of Petunia and Trance in my post with "the functionality in MOS/OS4 that takes 68k code and translates it to PPC instructions". There, now you do not have much left to reply to. It is still an emulator.

How "complete" it feels to the end user would be very much a subjective feeling depending on the individuals needs. I know for a fact that neither OS4 nor MOS feel complete enough for my preferences, since they cannot run the software I am used to running on my classics without obnoxious E-UAE instances. This works much better in AROS, where the emulator runs hidden in the background while still providing all functionality of a regular instance of E-UAE.

[HenryCase]

And so are you.

Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.

How? I understand the transparent API calls, but how do you run 68k apps without emulating a 68k CPU? Are you suggesting PPC CPUs can understand 68k opcodes without translation?

I haven't seen much progress from this project lately. The project has seen several refactoring/rewrite cycles already and so far hasn't actually run much 68k apps. Latest download release is from 1 year ago. I wouldn't go as far as to predict that the project is in trouble, but it certainly doesn't seem to be progressing well.

Last post from the Emumiga blog was on 15th May, i.e. 6 days ago.
http://emumiga.com/
Who cares if there have been some challenges along the way, as long as it's still being worked on then it will get there, there's no technical reason I know of that means it won't work.