AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Available To Buy

[Kesa]

This is something new and different (like AROS and MorphOS) made by different people (some Linux Game Porting people) than those who once wrote Amiga OS, and they rebranded Amiga OS to "Classic", and their own OS to "AmigaOS". And that's it! Had you slapped on the "AmigaOS" sticker on MorphOS (*THANK GOD THEY DIDN'T*) you would also have gotten something new and different, but you would have experienced far, far better Amiga compatibility (and better performance, and better features as well). They are using the brand to cover up the product underneath it. I have always been surprised that there actually exists people who buys that, but I guess some people really likes to blindly follow a trade mark instead of actually reading up on all alternatives about what you will really get (what's under the hood, so to say) and make a rational decision based on that info. But who knows, they should be a happy bunch now, because it seems like these people will have a lot of new, interesting Amiga branded products to choose from, including tablets! And even an upcoming, new Amiga from Commodore! :-O

This comment is nothing more than a comparison between the red and blue camps. You are obviously blue

I think you should watch Dan Woods "why i use amiga in 2011". Great video. In my opinion he perfectly sums up the differences between the different camps. Red camp trying to remain as faithful to the original os as possible whereas the blue camp try to modernize things a bit. All i can say is each to their own.  

Follow this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1RsvEm7UrU

[takemehomegrandma]

This comment is nothing more than a comparison between the red and blue camps.

Not really, it was a comparison between "Classic" and "Next Generation" (or "retro/vintage" and "continuation", or "680x0" and "alien architecture"), as a response to the statement:

"When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it."

There are apples and oranges. An apple can evolve over time as it grows (like when Microsoft updates Windows from Vista to 7; the apple changes and evolves, however it still tastes like an apple), but it won't "evolve" into an orange in a natural way. Perhaps some clever scientist could add something to an orange to make it taste somewhat like an apple, but you can't change the fact that it's still an orange and not an apple. Both are still tasty fruits though, that anyone interested in fruits can enjoy, albeit for somewhat different reasons.

Basically we have two things; the Amiga ("classic"), and the "Next Generation" efforts. And *there is a gap between them*! Apples and oranges.

If you are a classic user in 2011, you are into retro/vintage computing where it's important that *all* your old Amiga games and application runs, and runs flawlessly. In this case you'd probably be best off with a fast 060 accelerator fully expanded with memory (it would probably be better than a PPC PowerUP card; not that many important Classic SW titles were made anyway), various gizmo's from Jens Schönfeld, and a customary patched-up Amiga OS 3.x. This way you can fully enjoy your Amiga *exactly* the way you have always done. You should also keep an eye on the Natami project, which will be more relevant to you than any PowerUP card in existence.

If you are a "NG" user in 2011, you are an old Amigan that loves the Amiga way in which the system functions, you like the environment, etc. But you want to use it in a more modern way; you want the power to browse the web and use the Internet in a 2011 way, you want to enjoy 2011 level media files, etc. Sure, SW from Amiga "Classic" is nice to have (it would be kind of empty and pointless without it) and that is why the various "NG" options (MorphOS, AROS and OS4) tries to bridge over the gap in various ways and with various results. But a NG user is prepared to sacrifice *some* level of Amiga compatibility (as little as possible of course) on behalf of the new possibilities with powerful hardware and a new OS with better features. Hardware that is as modern, cheap and powerful as possible is more relevant than any PowerUP card in existence (the PowerUP is way to aged and weak to be used for serious 2011 NG stuff anyway).

"Nearly-Right" above expressed disappointment with the Amiga compatibility of OS4. And this is the whole essence of my post; it's *not* an evolved apple, no, like all other NG systems it is an orange with apple taste added to it. But unlike the other two oranges out there, Hyperion has put a sticker onto their orange, saying "This is an apple" as a way to sell more of it to apple lovers who doesn't bother examining further what's really underneath that sticker. But of course it won't change the fact that it is a NG OS and *not* a Classic OS. Hence Nearly-Right's disappointment; he wanted an evolved apple and wasn't really expecting an orange that *almost* tastes like an apple. I think he was a little fooled by the sticker. And if you are prepared to take the step away from apple land into orange land, you will actually find that the orange that tastes *the most* apple is in fact one that *does not* have a sticker saying "this is an apple" on it. Ironic, huh?

Oh, did I forget to express my opinion that the PowerUP cards are kind of redundant in 2011, both for retro fans and for NG fans...?

[amigadave]

@Takemehomegrandma,

I agree with most of your assessment, but would add that many Amiga users are excited about the Natami project precisely for the reasons you stated that they are disappointed with all of the NG Amiga-Like systems.  They see the Natami as a chance for getting an evolved Amiga system, instead of, as you put it, an Orange with a bit, or a lot of Apple flavoring added. ( Edit: #2, In re-reading your post I think this is in line with what you were saying, as I somehow completely missed your inclusion of the Natami project in my first reading of your post, so I think we are on the same page.)

Now, it is yet to be seen if the Natami team will be successful in creating a system and OS improvements that will be generally accepted as an evolved Amiga system, but they appear to have a good chance of succeeding in that regard, if/when they can finally get their ambitious project completed.

Edit:  I would also disagree that "Apple", the company, actually evolved their OS.  They just did a more thorough and complete job of adding the Apple flavor to their Orange when they moved from MacOS9 to MacOSX.

[Kesa]

I stand corrected

[HammerD]

>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...

I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.

If you were to strip out all of the new functionality and features of OS4.x it probably also would boot in a similar memory footprint.   You can't boot MorphOS or AROS in 2MB either.  Even if you could you wouldn't be too functional, and i dare say OS 3.9 isn't too functional either in 2MB.

[takemehomegrandma]

I would also disagree that "Apple", the company, actually evolved their OS.  They just did a more thorough and complete job of adding the Apple flavor to their Orange when they moved from MacOS9 to MacOSX.

Yes indeed.

[Nearly-Right]

Not really, it was a comparison between "Classic" and "Next Generation" (or "retro/vintage" and "continuation", or "680x0" and "alien architecture"), as a response to the statement:

"When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it."

There are apples and oranges.  An apple can evolve over time as it grows  ....

Woah, hold on there, I'm smelling that smell again, is it burning rubber, no it's that smell I don't like called bull-$**T

Basically we have two things; the Amiga ("classic"), and the "Next Generation" efforts. And *there is a gap between them*! Apples and oranges.

Please don't talk in fruit-isms explaining to the little people what life is all about. I understand the big picture, and don't need any 'fruit-in-sense' to explain what you mean. Just stick to the facts, please.

not that many important Classic SW titles were made anyway)

Oh, let me think, DPaint, PageStream - still in Amiga development, Lightwave, Imagine, CanDo, Directory Opus, ImageFX, ScanQuix, MakeCD, Perfect Paint, TV Paint, Photofolio, Broadcast Titler, Scala, Hollywood - still in Amiga development, IBrowse. I'm just brushing the surface here, but some of them are still very useful even in today's modern Hi-Ghz comupting systems, not as fast, but they still do a lot of what the more up-to-date software on other platforms is capable of.

You should also keep an eye on the Natami project, which will be more relevant to you than any PowerUP card in existence.

Of course, Natami, and AROS seeing as it uses x86 hardware like Amithlon/AmigaOSXL do. If the Classic OS 4.x doesn't get fixed as it should with full Mediator support I am certainly not interested in getting Classic OS4.x at this point.

"Nearly-Right" above expressed disappointment with the Amiga compatibility of OS4.

No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.

They, Hyperion/The Friedens, want it - The Mediator, for it's functionality to give more modern Radeon graphics cards support and the ability to enhance their Classic OS4.x graphics system, but then stymie/thwart/stump the rest of the PCI options because they don't like the way it works. Well who is it thwarting, just the Classic Amiga users any chance to have any of the PCI cards being added to the OS4.x system of devices, such as SCSI, USB, SATA, Sound, more modern NICs than the RTL8029AS. All of which, apart from SATA, work under OS3.9.

By the way, there is no Zorro based GFX card that offers the same opportunites as a Radeon card, so OS4.x is definitely aimed at users who have a Mediator, but it seems only for the GFX card slot.

Software incompatability I could understand if it bangs the hardware, but not allowing hardware compatability, for a product that the manufacturers are still actively involved in the Amiga marketplace, which would encourage more people to embrace the Classic OS4.x, is just shooting the Classic Amiga Mediator users in the foot. After all, the GFX part of the Mediator is what is making the OS4.x work mainly, as you need a GFX card to be able to even remotely take advantage of what OS4.x offers. So, cutting off the rest of the Mediator functionality means you've got a £150+ PCI board which is just used to allow GFX functionality, and the other slots, up to 5 more are just redundant.

Oh, did I forget to express my opinion that the PowerUP cards are kind of redundant in 2011, both for retro fans and for NG fans...?

Well they are, as far as I am concerned, if Hyperion don't relent and afford the Mediator this small area of functionality it needs to function under OS4.x

By the way, if you believe in re-incarnation I think you may return in your next life as a fruit-fly. Only kidding

[smerf]

Hi,

@Franko,

PS: It's painless, You only have to start worrying when you start talking to Squirrels and they begin to answer back...
__________________

You mean squirrels talk to, I only thought it was Guinness pigs

smerf

[Kesa]

Please don't talk in fruit-isms explaining to the little people what life is all about. I understand the big picture, and don't need any 'fruit-in-sense' to explain what you mean. Just stick to the facts, please.

Actually i think he was talking to me so try and not take it too personally

[HammerD]

No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.

I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you.  Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:

-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets.  SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card

Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?

1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)

Ok...

For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition.  You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).

2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec.  I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing.  You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.

3)  ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.

4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it.  Even if you had it.  I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?

5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked.  nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.

Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card.   Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.

In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.

The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card.  You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.

PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us.  They also provided the included FastATA driver.  OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.

[smerf]

Hi,

@takemehomegrandma,

Just went to the Apple boards where one young fellow was talking about updating his G4 up to the 7448 processor, and even the Apple fanboys where telling him that he would be better off buying one of the newer computers and get away from the PPC processors, one of them even said (PPC is old ancient and dead, why in the hello would you want to waste all that money on a 2.0ghz ppc processor, just buy one of the newer computers with an Intel).
It just goes to show that even the Apple fanboys are getting smarter.

smerf

[Kesa]

Hi,

@takemehomegrandma,

Just went to the Apple boards where one young fellow was talking about updating his G4 up to the 7448 processor, and even the Apple fanboys where telling him that he would be better off buying one of the newer computers and get away from the PPC processors, one of them even said (PPC is old ancient and dead, why in the hello would you want to waste all that money on a 2.0ghz ppc processor, just buy one of the newer computers with an Intel).
It just goes to show that even the Apple fanboys are getting smarter.

smerf

A link would be nice

[smerf]

Hi,

@Kesa,


http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/apple-desktops/143863-g4-quicksilver-processor-upgrade.html

There we go, read and laugh

smerf

[Kesa]

Hi,

@Kesa,


http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/apple-desktops/143863-g4-quicksilver-processor-upgrade.html

There we go, read and laugh

smerf

Just went over there and man... what a bunch of losers! :roflmao:

Those guys are so annoying. Let's start a forum war!

[Nearly-Right]

I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you.  Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:

-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets.  SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card

I was aware of the RTL8029AS PCI card, which I'd already mentioned, and of course the Radeon and Voodoo GFX cards I am aware of also.

I read on the Hyperion Blog there was testing of the PCI SATA cards, but I missed the confirmation that certain SATA PCI cards were supported under Classic OS4.1?

However, the release information did not state which chipsets were supported, so your information is of more use, but should have been in the level of detail you've supplied on the release information.

Of course it is a good thing that it is supported, and welcomed.

Communications is a great skill, it seems very much forgotten by the release team.

Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?

1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)

Ok...

For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition.  You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).

Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also.

Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?

2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec.  I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing.  You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.

Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.

You haven't thought your response through very well so far I am sorry to say.

3)  ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.

The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?

4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it.  Even if you had it.  I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?

That is a more valid point, but you can still plug in a Digital TV Freeview STB box with RF modulation into the TV card to get the Freeview channels shown through the Analogue TV card. Again, it's a device that can be used, though I haven't used mine that much of recent.

5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked.  nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.

Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?

In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?

Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card.   Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.

The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?

As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.

Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.

We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.

Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.

In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.

But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.

So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?

The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card.

Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.

I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.

That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.

You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.

Again, your presumably an A3000 or A4000 owner, and you've forgotten about those of us with an A1200 PPC card with no Zorro interface. That's why I got a Mediator as I can get a GFX card in it that way, and a soundcard, and a USB card, and a PCI SCSI card, and an ethernet PCI NIC - which I couldn't do as an A1200 is without a Zorro interface.

PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us.  They also provided the included FastATA driver. OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.

No, the Mediator is NOT PROPERLY SUPPORTED, as under OS3.9 68k there are PCI cards that function very well, thank you very much, but don't under Classic OS4.1.

No of course the DMA hack is not needed, if you don't mind your original Mediator system to be laid bare/denuded by the lack of DMA hack support.

I don't agree with your polarized view of Classic OS4.1 and the lack of DMA support for the Mediator which has not been supported as it should be by the latest Classic Amiga OS4.1, and wasn't over 3 years ago when Classic OS4.0 was released.

So not much/any re-design has gone on in the OS to support the Mediator's functionality, even with consultation with Elbox. Someone is to blame for that, and it's a disgrace.

[HammerD]

Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also.  Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?

Yes, however, the Blizzard with 256MB physical ram capability lessens the need for any ZorRAM.  You could use a swap partition on a SATA hard disk if you need it.  The Cyberstorm PPC can only take 128MB of physical ram, so that is why the ZorRAM is important in that case.

Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.

Possibly getting a couple hundred KB more out of a NIC, at least to me, isn't that compelling of a reason...but if that's a critical factor for you, that's your decision and nothing I can do to change it.

The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?

No, but my local corner computer store had more than 10 in stock, brand new, for about $15 bucks each.  I bet they are still there, so at least for me it was easier to get that then to order one from an Amiga dealer.

Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?

In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?

Which is why we have included SATA support - to allow users to use cheap and readily available SATA hard disks.  As I have stated in other threads, it is quite possible that work on the Blizzard PPC SCSI driver _may_ start after the BlizzardVision Warp3D driver.  It's not exactly easy to find someone to write this Blizzard SCSI Driver...trust me.  Go try to ask someone to write it...luckily we have a developer who is willing to take a crack at it, but he's very busy at the moment.   There are probably only about 5-6 people with the expertise to write the driver (who also have expertise on Amiga) and half of those people are MorphOS devleopers, who obviously won't write a driver for AmigaOS4, and of the other half, none of them remaining have Classic hardware except one.  Luckily he is a nice guy and has agreed to help out, time permitting.

The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?

It won't be done because it is a _hack_. It's ugly, it's messy, and it's not real DMA, and it doesn't DMA back to the system and would only allow a handful of other cards to work - most of which the functionality is _already_ covered and works quite fine, so the developers aren't going to do it.  I'm sorry but I've personally asked about it and they won't do it.

As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.

You have to understand that resources are very limited.  If I had lots of money and lots of developers with the required hardware and skills to actually write drivers, then we would have more drivers.  The cold hard fact is that we don't and I don't see people volunteering to write more drivers for us...

Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.

Those cards all require DMA.

We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.

Be careful with your words here, it is not the majority of cards.   Functionality _is_ available with alternate cards as I have mentioned.  Sound, Network, SATA, Graphics - it's all possible out-of-the-box.   Is it limited to specific cards? Yes.  Would I like more cards supported? Sure, but we don't have the resources (ie. time and money) to do it.  If you have several thousand dollars to hire a programmer then we could get one additional driver.

Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.

If you want me to get you a Solo-1 I can, as I said, they have >10 in stock at my local computer shop.  Send me a private message if you want.

But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.

Again be careful with your words, how do you know "Most" users will be cut off?  Maybe YOU will be cut off, because you don't own the supported hardware, but that hardware is still available and cheap to obtain.

So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?

I'm sorry your hardware isn't supported, but as I've said, we don't have the time or money to develop additional drivers at this time.  We've supported what we can and tried to cover all the functionality you need (Sound, Network, Graphics, Disk) out of the box.  Yes, support is limited to specific cards.   Sorry those aren't the ones you own.

Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.

I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.

That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.

Look, I'm not trying to sell you AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.  I'm just trying to point out that it does support a limited set of PCI hardware because it's not possible for Hyperion to write drivers for all the PCI cards out there.  I'm sorry but that's the reality of the market.  We support functionality people will need based on a limited set of cards.

If you think AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is not for you - then by all means do not buy it.

All I can say is myself and others have worked very hard to overcome many of the critical points against AmigaOS 4.0 Classic.  We had a limited timeline and limited budget.   We've done the best we can and I am proud of what we have accomplished - releasing a new OS for a 20 year old machines and 14 year old PPC accelerators is not easy.

PS - I was NOT really involved with AmigaOS 4.0 Classic so I can't speak for that product.

PPS - Even if the DMA hack worked, new drivers would still be required for ALL of the cards that you mention.  Elbox drivers are in 68k ASM and are not compatible with the PCI sub-system library interface of AmigaOS4.1 - they would all have to be entirely re-written.