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Author Topic: Amiga guilt and time distortion.  (Read 23997 times)

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Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #89 from previous page: April 16, 2011, 06:32:11 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;632024
Way to go, calling people backward idiots :(

Intel inside an Amiga? Amiga's don't have an intel inside. Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't know what an Amiga is.


The meaning I believe was "People who say that someone who wants a 68k or PPC machine are backward idiots bug me (him)"

He must have forgotten to close a bracket somewhere :D
 

Offline B00tDisk

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2011, 07:09:20 PM »
Quote from: runequester;632034
I love how wanting to have amiga discussions without them negative piss fests apparently makes me a zealot for...something.

Amusingly i was the one posting a while back that an amiga desktop environment based on linux would make sense. Nearly got my head bitten off too :)


I'd love to see a linux distro with some Amiga-isms in it, coupled with what Linux can do.
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline Khephren

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »
Quote from: B00tDisk;632039
I'd love to see a linux distro with some Amiga-isms in it, coupled with what Linux can do.


This needs it's own thread. Runequester...you know what to do!
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2011, 07:25:37 PM »
I've just found another nice shiny silver teaspoon... :)

This time it was just behind my 3rd ear (the second one on the left that is) beside my old stuffed tortoise... :)

Anyone round here got a spare onion I could borrow for half an hour... ta... :)
 

Offline drHirudo

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2011, 07:50:20 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;631683
The point PC was viable future winner for UK computer gamers was mass adoption by software houses of VGA graphics as standard. Why?

386 VGA/SBLASTER owner buys SF2....pretty slow and unplayable. 18 months later sells it and gets 486DX66 +GRAVIS etc....suddenly old unplayable game is arcade quality. Had 256 colours but is faster and sounds better automatically.

A500 owner buyss SF2...32 colour slow rubbish....3 years later he gets a 4000/030 and loads SF2....STILL rubbish (same speed, 32 colours, SFX/music). Has to pray a good AGA version is released and buy a 2nd copy if it is ever made! No reward for his £999 investment!

And that my friends is the problem, in 1990 most arcade games on PC had 256 colour graphics like Super Nintendo and their old PC games bought before upgrading to better PC automatically improved without the need for a single line of game code to improve. VGA mass adoption was the key. EGA Cinemaware games will forever be inferior to Amiga versions even on an running on Intel i7 920 PC today. After VGA though it was game over. 256 colours was enough even for 3D games like Doom or Screamer Rally  comparedto PS1 RidgeRacer/Doom.

Big problem for AGA AND Atari Falcon potential purchasers no?


You are a perfect example for what he is pointing at. I had PC in the early 1990. My PC was Turbo and it had a Turbo button for a reason. Most of the old games were unplayable on faster machines, because they were tied to the slow processors. The sync with the videobeam was non existant on early PC games. I still have a magazine with source code for slowdowner that runs resident in DOS. A PC lamer told me in 1994 that the new games were undependable of CPU speed. So you can even run games on 4 MHz I asked him? He proudly answered yes.....
But the speed was not the only problem that sucked for the reasonable PC gaming, except for turn based strategies like Civilisation that was hit on the PC, while most Amiga gamers thought it sucked as a game. For every game before you start it you had to choose - type of Video controller (Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA), Type of Sound card (AdLib, SoundBlaster, SoundBlasterPro), Turbo or Normal version, JoyStick (what joystick, most of the games did not support joystick), Mouse. Shit, you had to run mouse driver before starting the game. Some games did not allow save of config, that was helping the PC gamers become DOS experts, because it was more interesting to type stupid scripts in DOS than to play actual games. Starting games from Windows was nightmare too, and even after Windows 95 appeared that put end of the configuration hell, people were still loving DOS because it was better for gaming.
The consoles were selling pretty well back in 1994-1995 for a reason - the Amiga and the Atari were no more, the PC sucked as a gaming machine and the PS1 was getting all the nicest games, that took the PC 3 years (late 1997) to catch up with the quality of the graphics and sound.

Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2011, 07:53:55 PM »
Quote from: Khephren;632041
This needs it's own thread. Runequester...you know what to do!


Amithlon with a bare minimum 68k AROS kickstart and a 686-BE compiled AROS userland would be lovely methinks. :)
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2011, 08:04:25 PM »
One thing I do know is most of the disastrous machine projects and design decisions that happened are because the founder of Commodore, Jack, had to  leave.

Some examples...

1. Commodore 16 was meant to have been a project to produce a MRP $70-80 VIC-20 replacement.

2.There is no way Jack would have not screamed about the A1000 unlike Commodore whilst the delayed 500/2000 machines crept into 1987.

3. He would have shifted a lot more C64s @ <$199 in 84.

And before you unknowledgeable ones say "Atari" remember

1. Cost all his personal wealth to get it.
2. No MOS factory
3. VIC-II/SID quality best designers didn't move to Atari.
4. Atari R&D projects had nothing worth a crap.
5. No stake in arcade side.

Real shame.
2.
 

Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2011, 08:28:55 PM »
Quote from: Khephren;632041
This needs it's own thread. Runequester...you know what to do!


Given my new found status as an attentionwhoring 68K zealot, i'll have to overcome my inner turmoil and self loathing first :)

i'll post something tonight and lay out some thoughts. Sadly i have zero ability to code anything but pipe dreams are fun :)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 08:32:13 PM by runequester »
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2011, 10:47:51 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;632035
The meaning I believe was "People who say that someone who wants a 68k or PPC machine are backward idiots bug me (him)"
Yep. That's what I get for posting half-asleep...
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Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2011, 12:05:56 PM »
Quote from: drHirudo;632049
You are a perfect example for what he is pointing at. I had PC in the early 1990. My PC was Turbo and it had a Turbo button for a reason. Most of the old games were unplayable on faster machines, because they were tied to the slow processors. The sync with the videobeam was non existant on early PC games. I still have a magazine with source code for slowdowner that runs resident in DOS. A PC lamer told me in 1994 that the new games were undependable of CPU speed. So you can even run games on 4 MHz I asked him? He proudly answered yes.....
But the speed was not the only problem that sucked for the reasonable PC gaming, except for turn based strategies like Civilisation that was hit on the PC, while most Amiga gamers thought it sucked as a game. For every game before you start it you had to choose - type of Video controller (Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA), Type of Sound card (AdLib, SoundBlaster, SoundBlasterPro), Turbo or Normal version, JoyStick (what joystick, most of the games did not support joystick), Mouse. Shit, you had to run mouse driver before starting the game. Some games did not allow save of config, that was helping the PC gamers become DOS experts, because it was more interesting to type stupid scripts in DOS than to play actual games. Starting games from Windows was nightmare too, and even after Windows 95 appeared that put end of the configuration hell, people were still loving DOS because it was better for gaming.
The consoles were selling pretty well back in 1994-1995 for a reason - the Amiga and the Atari were no more, the PC sucked as a gaming machine and the PS1 was getting all the nicest games, that took the PC 3 years (late 1997) to catch up with the quality of the graphics and sound.


I beg to differ,

PC comments-
whilst I started with a 486SX friends had 386SX and 386DX machines. The only times PC games were affected by CPU speed making them unplayable was running C64 quality simple EGA games from mid80s intended for 8086 CPU.

These were excluded from my comments for a good reason. ALL VGA arcade games were playable on even early Pentiums, many scrolling games sold in 386/486 era around 91/92 would not be as smooth as an Amiga 1200 or even 500.

So playing 8086 CGA/EGA 80s games on Pentium MMX is irrelevant to the discussion as weare talking Wing Commander VGA and onwards. Before this you wouldn't consider an EGA or 286 12mhz PC in the UK for gaming.

Console comments=
More Atari 2600 VCS consoles were sold than all Atari AND C= 8 bit home computers combined.
NES outsold Amiga + Atari ST combined
Megadrive outsold Amiga + Atari ST combined

Of those 3 examples only Sega Megadrive was superior in some ways to competition on it's launch day. VCS inferior to Atari 400, NES inferior to A500 but 300% lower cost was the advantage. Console sales and home use computer sales are not connected.If you need ed a computer there was no advantage in getting a Playstation. PS1 was a revolution and Sony's marketing combined to quadruple console market size. Had nothing to do with specs of Amigas and PCs available or whether those machines could even run Ridge Racer on launch day.



Ultimately I have given the generally accepted reasons most people in the industry see why, and when the breakpoint was, for when Wintel would secure a future no matter what C= or Atari did. A machine which has no custom chips can run games better/smoother. You will either agree or not but taken in context it is fact. As is whatever you think of Win95 for 95% of the world it was good enough for Wintel to make serious inroads in the UK into the home computer market.

PC SF2 bit choppy and sounding scratchy? Get a faster CPU and Gravis wavetable card. WTF choices did we have if an arcade conversion was botched? None! If SF2 PC was not produced in VGA but EGA however PC users would be stuck same as Amga users......get it? This is why Outrun PC is a waste of time and before the cut-off point. Needing touse moslow on a 200mhz PC to make a 1984 CGA version of Zaxxon playable is not related to the topic

CGA era = C64 versions of games better and EGA era = Amiga versions of games better....this is all about 1991/92 introduction of AGA fighting off rise of the home Wintel PC sales. AGA was fine for a couple of years but as Dave Haynie pointed out Commodore's AAA/Hombre was financial and technical suicide compared to off the shelf PC sound/Video/3D cards anyway.
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2011, 12:41:40 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;632120
I beg to differ,
More Atari 2600 VCS consoles were sold than all Atari AND C= 8 bit home computers combined.
NES outsold Amiga + Atari ST combined
Megadrive outsold Amiga + Atari ST combined


Hmmm... gawd knows where you came up with the load of keech... :rolleyes:

But even if you took the worst guestimate sales figures for both Atari & Commodore 8 bit computers they far outweigh the so called 30 million sales figures of the Atari 2600... ;)

The only consoles of that era that according to the various sales figures that could come close to such a claim is the NES with figures of around 61 million, followed by the SNES with figures of around 49 million sold... :)

Methinks you're just making thinks up to try and prove some pointless point... :D
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #100 on: April 17, 2011, 02:31:55 PM »
Let's make a fair comparison:
There were very little amiga games that were harddisk installable, while all pc games were.
Harddisk installable amiga games ran fine from the GUI, even the more hardware-heavy games, like Lionheart and Fightin' Spirit, while the vast majority of pc games weren't until 1997.
The avarage sound card until 1995 was the Sound Blaster Pro, of which synthesizer could not match the Amiga synthesizer by a long run. I remember buying the Sound Blaster Pro for more than 200 guilders, which was a lot back then, but I desperately wanted to get rid of the beeper sounds (and many old games didn't support it to my disappointment).
Many pc games before 1992 were released in CGA or EGA while their Amiga counterparts were all VGA-ish, at worst EGA-ish. Sound blasters weren't that common back then so many games were CGA + pc beeper and I can tell you that the audiovisual experience was heaven for the die-hard masochist. The colour magenta is still burned in my retina and the shrieks of the beeper still haunts me in nightmares.
Sure, the Amiga had it's share of Guru Meditations, but it didn't cripple the machine as much as the BSODs of Windows 9x, and while the majority of BSODs were caused by Windows 95, the Guru Meditations were almost all caused by badly written software (and therefore could easier be dealt with).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 03:01:57 PM by Speelgoedmannetje »
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline _ThEcRoW

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #101 on: April 17, 2011, 02:53:43 PM »
@drHirudo

"For every game before you start it you had to choose - type of Video controller (Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA), Type of Sound card (AdLib, SoundBlaster, SoundBlasterPro), Turbo or Normal version, JoyStick (what joystick, most of the games did not support joystick)"
If i'm not mistaken, that only were made once via the setup program and never was required again.

"Mouse. Shit, you had to run mouse driver before starting the game"
Didn't you know of batch files?. I loaded the mouse driver along with others needed and didn't care of it before of launching a game or not.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #102 on: April 17, 2011, 03:09:02 PM »
Dunno what this thread is about.  BTW which browser is best for DOS 3.3 ?
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #103 on: April 17, 2011, 03:11:14 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;632120

PC SF2 bit choppy and sounding scratchy? Get a faster CPU and Gravis wavetable card. WTF choices did we have if an arcade conversion was botched? None!

Eh, Amiga 2000/3000/4000 owners could easily upgrade, with accellerator cards, like Newteks etcetera. Point is, game developers did not aim the high end Amiga market as I guess there were less high end Amiga users as there were high end PC users. Otherwise they would have opted more often for HD installers as well.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Amiga guilt and time distortion.
« Reply #104 on: April 17, 2011, 03:14:47 PM »
Quote from: _ThEcRoW;632131
"Mouse. Shit, you had to run mouse driver before starting the game"

Ah yes, the autoexec.bat/config.sys drama. One game wanted EMM386, the other puked on it. the other game did not run until you set an obscure parameter like buffer=40 (40-what? - an anonymous math teacher). So you ended up with creating a helluva startup menu.
I remember a game magazine stating they were just unable to test the PC port of Turrican 2 as the cd rom drivers needed too much memory, let alone the sound blaster drivers.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 03:17:43 PM by Speelgoedmannetje »
And the canary said: \'chirp\'