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Offline Duce

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #194 from previous page: March 14, 2012, 10:38:44 AM »
If 10 "Brand X" fanatics in a general, non Brand X community spam and tell tall tales at every general purpose community site with personal agenda backing it, to the point it is a pain in the ass - do you not see why it would turn some people off "Brand X" product?

I have choices - I didn't (and won't) buy Brand X's product, and I quit following any of their forums despite the fact they have a super product.  I won't pay reg fees for the pleasure of that type of community.  I'll never get another PM or email haranguing me about my choices in OS for a platform that the world forgot about 20 years ago.  Too much BS for a hobby.

The Amiga isn't Audi, lol.  You are missing the point.  My Audi effs up, my Macbook effs up - I phone Audi/Apple, take them into a service dep't.  A completely silly comparison in scope.  If I buy an OS4 rig, at some point I will need to get involved with the community.  Same for AROS.  Same for MOS.  Niche market, no support to speak of other than community.  It's not a matter of listening to loudmouths, it's a matter of being forced to be in the same pen with said loudmouths once you pick your team.  I won't pay for that pleasure, red, blue, green or whatever color.

If I buy into "Brand X OS", Brand X OS being a niche OS, I *WILL* at some time need to get involved with community forums.  I will.  Period - there's no 1-800 number to call for Tech Support.

EDIT:  When the dogs are barking so loudly they send PM's, emails, or insults for your personal choices or comments in a hobby community - it's hard not to listen to those barking dogs.
 

Offline drHirudo

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #195 on: March 14, 2012, 10:39:47 AM »
Quote from: hooligan;683666
Individual, individuals. Doesn't matter.


It matters. I can easily slam down Piru's or TMHG "facts", but when bunch of erudite MOS fans start talking that I don't need XYZ in AmigaOS 4 and it wasn't good feature to have it at first place, I lose interest pretty fast and move on.

The same with the registrations and downloads comparisons of them.

They call me AmigaOS 4 fan, and they would believe that I was one of the first that downloaded Timberwolf, so I am counted in their "statistics". WRONG. I downloaded the browser the second week after it's release, simply because OWB and IBrowse are working good enough for me and I didn't had the time to test yet another browser that is pretty much still in beta version.
Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?

The serial number of registrations is also a pure fallacy to count on it for statistics. What happens to the serial when a person transfers his license to new machine (after proving the old broke)?
What about the people with three-four-five licenses? The ones who were unable to transfer their licenses? Are they counted 1-2-3-4 times?
I have originals (disks and CDs) of the following AmigaOS versions:
1.2, 1.3, 2.04, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1
How do you count me in the statistics?
As classic, NG or whatever user?
I use classic Amiga software every day on my AmigaOS 4.

There are too many variables in the amount of active users calculation that would make the "statistics" not statistics at all, but pure speculation and fabrication.

Offline OlafS3

Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #196 on: March 14, 2012, 10:46:31 AM »
The "proofs" were silly and this kind of behavior noone persuades to buy MorphOS. And besides both camps (MorphOS and AmigaOS are in the "no modern hardware" trap). And both sides keep the battle going on.

For me there is only the choice for working together or disappear on the midrun...
 

Offline hooligan

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #197 on: March 14, 2012, 10:47:45 AM »
@Dr.Hirudo
Quote
Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?


(if the above question was targeted at me)

No. The whole discussion about amount of active users is absurd.
 

Offline hooligan

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #198 on: March 14, 2012, 10:53:15 AM »
@Duce

You call this fanatic? Too shame you obviously missed out the c64 vs spectrum era ...5hit was a bit more personal back then, no hiding in the forums :lol:

Quote
If 10 "Brand X" fanatics in a general, non Brand X community spam and tell tall tales at every general purpose community site with personal agenda backing it, to the point it is a pain in the ass - do you not see why it would turn some people off "Brand X" product?

Nope. If possible I'd give their preference a go aswell. Who knows, maybe they are right ;-)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 11:14:16 AM by hooligan »
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #199 on: March 14, 2012, 11:04:12 AM »
I think the competition is good in some respects. Imagine if there was only one option... I think that option would be much worse than the 3 available now.

The downside is when I imagine what if all 3 camps efforts all went into one single ng os. So many things have been done 3 times. Thats sad.

There is too much bs between morph and aos people. Being an aros user, I've noticed that camp has tended to be alot more positive about the other two.

I've also seen that if you have a valid criticism about morphos it is usually answered civilly. To me, the AOS 4 community just attacks anyone with valid questions, or especially criticisms.

I think asking how someone can close source a firefox port and then plan to charge people money for it is a valid question.

I also think the criticism about charging so much for ancient spec aos hardware, or x1000 not even having drivers is worthy of discussion and not attacks.

Sometimes, the morphos users and developers simply point out the bull**** in the other camp. I can't blame them for that. When benchmarks reveal that a 50$ used mac has very similar speed/benchmarks to a 3000$ x1000 people attack them for pointing that out. Personally, I think people deserve to know the truth of what they are really buying, and I'm glad someone revealed that.

I don't know how many morphos users there are. I don't care. I use AROS.
Though, if Morph finally goes to g5, I will buy a mac, customize the case to replace apple logos with butterflys or boingballs, and register that day.

I think the mac thing is great. I've always LOVED mac hardware but being a long time linux guy I find osx to be a total joke.

Steven
 

Offline billyfish

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #200 on: March 14, 2012, 11:07:22 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;683652
This is TakeMeHomeGrandma's way of promoting MorphOS to gain more users and make friends.

It is a shame though, as it only hurts both sides (OS4.x & MorphOS) from gaining more users, as many original Amiga users, either current or former users, get so turned off by all this nonsense that they avoid even looking at either choice.

That is what disappoints me, is the loss of potential users and developers that could join one or both of the PPC Next Generation systems.


Quote from: hooligan;683659
@AmigaDave

I don't remember if I told this here or at mz.org before but I repeat myself: why would any sane person give a flying f about some individuals loud opinions?



I agree. Hooligan, logically it makes no difference you're absolutely right. However when someone obsessively cherry picks stuff to try and win their argument and seems to have glee in slamming someone's choices, it does become off-putting and self-defeating. I'm currently still on 68k/WinUAE and ideally would like to try all of the oses. My plan is that the two major bits of, admittedly very niche, software I'm writing will be available for as many platforms as possible.

I prefer a collaborative, constructive approach, for example MUI-OWB getting ported by Fab, Kasle, et al., Desler's aim to port Cinammon writer to all 3 ng systems, rather than the destructive "my way or the highway" approach.

It does seem crazy considering everyone involved was most likely an Amiga fan in the 69k days, that it seems to have evolved into

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

billy
 

Offline Duce

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #201 on: March 14, 2012, 11:13:49 AM »
Haha Hooligan, we had our fair share of fanaticism over here too, we didn't see many Spectrum's over here though.  Brings back a fun memory.

I remember we used to have BBS meetups - essentially just a bunch of socially retarded, pimply BBS geeks, we'd find someone old enough to buy us beer and meet at someones house.

The one time, it was a community BBS meet - not just our little circle of Amiga guys and the few PC sysop guys we kept around for comedic and/or charity value.  Everyone showed, standing room only - Commodore guys, Apple guys, PC guys, hell - even the one Unix sysop in town was there.  14 year olds, 60 year olds, everyone was there.

As expected, it turned into a drunken trainwreck, was hosted by a friend who ran an Amiga BBS at the time.  We (us Amiga guys) all woke up face down on the floor hungover the next morning, only to find the mouseball gone from the mouse of the A2000 030 the party host used to run his BBS.  This was his only computer, and back then you couldn't exactly run out and buy a new mouseball - christ, most of the computers back then didn't have a mouse.

This of course was now a holy war.  Greasy haired pimply kids loaded into their mothers cars, driving around house to house shouting at anyone who was at the party, wanting to know where the *bloody mouseball went.  Turns out one of the "IBM/MS Guys", a Remote Access sysop thought it'd be amusing if he swiped it.  

We weren't amused, but thinking back now it brings back fond memories of when being a computer user was truly something special :)

Shortly after that, the local FTN echomail hub decided he was going to gate all echomail through dialup net.  Ran a DOS system, took him 3 hours to toss and package the mail and we got annoyed, real annoyed - knowing full well my '060 A4000 could do it in 5 minutes flat.  I setup DLG and Mailmanager/GMS mailer and I showed it could be done so much more efficiently.  

This led to another holy war that caused 6 Fidonet nodes to drop out of our zone at one time, effectively killing off Fidonet in our small podunk town, lol.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 11:19:42 AM by Duce »
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #202 on: March 14, 2012, 11:24:49 AM »
I think we should all unite, for we all share one common interest....

... making fun of Atari ST users.

*looks for any interlopers*
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Offline drHirudo

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #203 on: March 14, 2012, 11:55:59 AM »
Quote from: spirantho;683681
I think we should all unite, for we all share one common interest....

... making fun of Atari ST users.

*looks for any interlopers*


That's easy.
Just ask any Atari ST user to run The Great Giana Sisters on his machine.
If you can not imagine how bad it can be - I will mention one of the features - No scroll!

Offline Crumb

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #204 on: March 14, 2012, 11:57:16 AM »
Quote from: drHirudo;683670
I downloaded the browser the second week after it's release,


I downloaded it three times and I don't use any OS4 version at all. First time it was to keep it, second to take a look at the attached sobjs and the third one because I didn't remember where did I put the old version. And I know some OS3 users who are OS4 fans despiting never using it that like to download os4 software (they hope to be able to buy some os4 machine in the future but not at current prices).

Quote

Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?


I don't but I guess active users would download it, otherwise I wouldn't count them as active (or users at all)

Quote

The serial number of registrations is also a pure fallacy to count on it for statistics.


Indeed, but it gives an idea of the amount of machines running MorphOS2.x, not the amoujnt of users. I know some users that had various machines but later sold them with the license.

Quote
What happens to the serial when a person transfers his license to new machine (after proving the old broke)?


Nothing. No new invoice is provided. No new registration number is provided.

Quote

What about the people with three-four-five licenses? The ones who were unable to transfer their licenses? Are they counted 1-2-3-4 times?


It counts the number of machines, not users.

Quote
I have originals (disks and CDs) of the following AmigaOS versions:
1.2, 1.3, 2.04, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1
How do you count me in the statistics?


From a NG perspective I would only count OS4.1 sales because the ones that bought 4.0 and didn't upgrade to 4.1 no longer use it or are inactive (at least from the cases I know). Active users upgrade.

Quote

There are too many variables in the amount of active users calculation that would make the "statistics" not statistics at all, but pure speculation and fabrication.


The truth is that the thread just provides information about the number of registered MorphOS machines, not real users. I know there are some 1.4.5 users out there but I wouldn't count them as users because they are inactive.

For AROS it's hard to know how many users are real users, most people I know download it from time to time to see what's going on but don't use it at all.

Real Amiga number of users is hard to know because activity is low (not many new developments), most of them come back to play some whdload games and that's all, they usually get bored soon but others join again due nostalgia. I suspect the number of classic "users" is higher than NG ones (AROS, MorphOS, OS4.x) although the activity of most of them is related to playing games or rarely watching a few demos and there's hardly any serious daily use. There's some people who also enjoy "collecting" and don't use them at all.
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Offline jj

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #205 on: March 14, 2012, 12:11:34 PM »
What I do not particularly understand is the people who say they don't understand why all this fighting happens.
 
It is human nature to defend and justify the choices we make, be it the type of films we like or the type of music we love or the choice of phone OS etc etc etc.
 
You look at any facet of life and people argue black and blue and trash each others opinions. There is nothing new in this, or unique to MorphOS. AOS, Windows, MacOsx, iPhone, Android. Do you get the picture.
 
If there were only two people left in the world and one had a red house and one has a blue house they would argue on a forum about which the best type of house.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #206 on: March 14, 2012, 12:13:15 PM »
I read that all the time that 68k users only play retro games. But when i look in new entries in aminet 68k beats all NGs by far (it is double all other combined). So "inactive" 68k seems not to be. Or how can you explain that?
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #207 on: March 14, 2012, 12:41:52 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;683691
I read that all the time that 68k users only play retro games.


Most of the ones I know just play (these are usually the same that left Amiga in the 90's and came back again later). Not all of them of course. The ones that kept their miggies do more interesting things (but the more or less active ones use MorphOS as main OS)

Quote
But when i look in new entries in aminet 68k beats all NGs by far (it is double all other combined). So "inactive" 68k seems not to be. Or how can you explain that?


I get the impression most of this "new 68k software" are recompiled unix CLI tools using ixemul. There are great demos each easter but that's all. The new twitter client was a surprise.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #208 on: March 14, 2012, 12:49:27 PM »
The weak point of you "MorphOS" users/fans is your proud that is at the edge of arrogance. Really have I to look in aminet and send you all the links? Your proud and ego will be the death of your platform...
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Amount of MorphOS copies sold
« Reply #209 on: March 14, 2012, 12:56:13 PM »
Quote from: number6;683603
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;683597
I fully understands how talking about user numbers in the hundreds (or below) is provoking to some, but the key term is *user* (not participator in the AW.net social club), and to quote myself from *a year ago* in this thread: "If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall 'state of the nation'."
Fine. No how about you present a plan to correct that situation, now that we've completed the 11 page adventure to reach that obvious conclusion.

The only ones who would even bother trying to *use* (as a *desktop* system) MorphOS, OS4 or AROS are the old Amiga enthusiasts that are already here. As a desktop system, it simply won't offer anything to anyone else that established OS's won't do better, so no-one will bother even if given away *for free*, like we have seen with AROS. It can't attract users from the outside using the current model (read: the 1992 "desktop" model, remaining here from when the computer world looked completely different), so the amount of users each of these OS's have is a zero-sum game within the existing (and rapidly shrinking) "Amiga Community". All the OS developers knows this and has probably come to peace with this fact half a decade ago or more already, and none of them really cares, *they are all* (MorphOS, OS4 and AROS) developing their OS as a hobby, and they are developing it into something they would like to use themselves, with no thought about potential commercial applications for the OS outside the community.

Heck, not even Commodore thought of the Amiga as a PC. Had they had the resources and ambition to put up a fight with Microsoft (and Apple) back in the early 1990's where it could have mattered, then Amiga *could* have mattered on the desktop market today. I'm talking about a situation where the Adobe Creative Suite, Microsoft Office, etc, etc, etc would have been running on Amiga OS today (which would probably have been completely different by now anyway), not because someone put up a bounty and donated a developer machine to Apple or Microsoft, but because of Amiga's significance on the desktop market, much like they do on Mac OS. A high single-digit market share could have been enough. But Commodore never had that ambition (they were exploring their own PC line AFAIR), and they for sure didn't have the vast financial muscles this would have taken anyway, as became obvious to everyone in 1995, if not before.

You can say what you want about Bill Buck (and many does :lol:), but nobody can say he isn't constantly pursuing possibilities on new (or at least "new-ish") markets. His plan (through VisCorp) was to buy the Amiga bankrupt's estate and utilize Amiga technology in non-desktop context (while still providing a desktop "on the side"). While I don't think the ED ("Electronic Device", its development code name) would have been a great success back then (the real market for STB's wasn't there yet, at least not in Europe), I think it's a proper way of thinking about Amiga in a commercial context - use its strengths in real, commercial products for *other* markets than the desktop market, while still providing some kind of desktop configuration for developers.

So what are Amiga's strengths?

I think the most prominent strength (the only one) worth anything, is its tiny footprint, its leanness, it's efficiency. This can make really low performance (even "under-performing") devices feel fast, my Efika is a proof of that. And speaking of Efika, the LimePC (which was about to be far more than the netbook the OS4 crowd is talking about now, take a look at the pictures in post #3) can be considered an extrapolation of that one; and again: Here is Bill Buck, and again: Here is the Amiga (in the shape of MorphOS, in a non-desktop form (or at least: *Could* have been, had it been ported to the Efika 1.5 years faster, and then adapted to the needs accordingly after that)). And again: it fell through! :p ;)

There are many areas where Amiga's strengths makes sense, many kind of devices that aren't desktop (and aren't tablet or smartphones either, those ships have also sailed), that benefits from ultra-cheap (virtually no cost), ultra-lean HW. SCALA (Hollywood?) type of applications, In-shop displays, Info Kiosks. In car/in flight/on train info systems/"infotainment", etc. 64-bit, SMP, Memory Protection, resource tracking, etc, etc, won't be needed, not really wanted either, since it will destroy the simplicity by making things complex. Those are desktop kind of things, something Amiga isn't.

And how do you harness these strengths in a commercial context? Well, the first step will obviously to decide that this is what you really want to do, that your primary goal is no longer a desktop for the vanishing Amiga community. You should then carefully *keep* it lean, simple and clean all the way, you don't arbitrary bloat it by throwing .so crap or desktop stuff into the picture in an ad-hoc manner. You should start putting together a package that could meet the demands of the market or market niche you are aiming for.

STB's got itself a real market half a decade past the "ED". I actually think Amiga would make sense in that context. And STB's are moving into TV's now, making them more than "just a TV". Amiga would make sense in a TV, but it would need development to do so. This is still unexplored territory, virgin estate, go claim it! In a few years, the "Apple TV" would have evolved and taken the full step into a 50" iTV you can put on your wall, and Android will as well, both having a new set of media (iMovies, instead of iTunes, oh wait, it's already here!) and a new App-store tuned for this new platform. Do it now, with the right partners, like electronics manufacturers, Spotify, Voddler, whatever (this is nothing you do as a five person, part time cellar company) and who knows, maybe you just might have a chance of claiming that single-digit market share you never got on the desktop market, by the time it becomes relevant to measure market shares on this yet to be developed market...?

But the thing is, those ultra-cheap and low-performance devices aren't made from PPC's, they are made from ARM, which disqualifies both MorphOS and OS4 before even getting to the starting line. These kinds of discussions are utterly pointless as it is.

The Science of Marketing isn't about how to put together an ad for a news paper or magazine, it's about identifying and satisfying needs on a market. And here is the shocker: There is no need on the desktop market for what MorphOS/OS4/AROS has to offer. The problem isn't about lacking promotion or advertizing, it's about completely lacking a commercial context.

But again, in any way, under any circumstances, *nothing* will happen as long as it's being tied to the PPC. The PPC is an Amiga killer, not an enabler, *especially* those costing $3,000...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 02:20:56 PM by takemehomegrandma »
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)