Native 68k Netsurf

[chris]

SDL is not too slow, its the reason that today no programmer code for a 50 MHZ CPU.

you can use the netsurf or other game ports for linux on a X86 with 50 MHZ.

You see all crawl.the programs are too complex, and they use more bustransfer speed as a slow mediator can offer.thats all.

If you put a 68060 CPU and have a fast GFX Card interface, you can see SDL fly.

You have contradicted yourself.  SDL is too slow for a classic Amiga.

and if you use a native GUI or not doesnt matter for netsurf speed.

No, but how you draw to the GUI does matter.  If you're using SDL it's going to be slow.  If you use graphics.library or cgx it's going to be faster.

problem of netsurf is too, that it can only support 1 pixelformat per bit depth.

In the core, yes.  But there's no problem for the frontend to convert this into something more suitable for display.  You're going to have to do that anyway for 8-bit screenmodes.

but on page create time it speed up nothing. css is too complex and need so much FPU calcs that a 50 MHZ CPU give no better results.

A CSS compatible browser is always going to be slower than a non-CSS one.  I don't think libcss does floating-point maths though.

Chris

[nicholas]

btw, i always comment my changes to whatever sources with //wawa, so its easy to find. in this particular case i only remember to have made one or two.
in case of problems or further requests please come back to me. also if any include is missing, my whole folder is multiple mb, i just cant upload it from here.

 Thanks, just got to clean the kitchen and then i have two hours to devote to this.

[unusedunused]

>No, but how you draw to the GUI does matter. If you're using SDL >it's going to be slow. If you use graphics.library or cgx it's going to >be faster.

Have you compile on OS4 a netsurf sdl version and compare speed ?

wawa own OS4, so its possible to compare render speed between OS4 and OS3 SDL version.

it was that native OS4 version was slower as OS3 SDL.
also OS4 Version is report from some user as unstable.pages crashes whole OS4, on netsurf 68k they crash not whole system.

I know you spend lots time in netsurf OS4, change version to work with newer cores, so i think to get a stable version for OS3 is too lots work.

Artur have some gadgets change so they work with agar GUI and SDL.
I still dont understand wy netsurf team does not support a small netsurf version that can run on handy etc.

netsurf is a small browser but need on the portable version with gtk a big and fat GUI system.
So wy not a smaller GUI system use....

and btw

wawa have compile a xwindows program that run on the xlib wrapper.so i think better is when try to compile gtk for xlib wrapper and use then xlib version.this allow lots more programs run on aos 68k.

[wawrzon]

that xinvaders 3d work with amiga port of x11 was a pure luck, i have not been able to compile any other x application for 68k.

and i dont have any os4 installation anymore. sorry.

[chris]

Have you compile on OS4 a netsurf sdl version and compare speed ?

No.  I did try compiling it once out of curiousity but it didn't work.  It wasn't worth more than five minutes of my time fixing it since I have a native version anyway.

also OS4 Version is report from some user as unstable.pages crashes whole OS4, on netsurf 68k they crash not whole system.

Bug reports would be useful.  If I don't know about it I can't fix it.

Having somebody working on the same frontend for OS3 is also useful, as there is greater chance of bugs being caught or fixed.

I know you spend lots time in netsurf OS4, change version to work with newer cores, so i think to get a stable version for OS3 is too lots work.

Mostly I'm tweaking things that aren't relevant to the core.  Core changes don't tend to require significant changes to the frontend code, if they do then the person implementing the changes usually fixes the frontends even if they can't test/compile them.  If you keep up-to-date it's not that much time really.

wawa have compile a xwindows program that run on the xlib wrapper.so i think better is when try to compile gtk for xlib wrapper and use then xlib version.this allow lots more programs run on aos 68k.

Again, why would I want to use this if I have a native GUI version?  It's a lot of effort (much much more than writing a new frontend from scratch) for no gain as far as NetSurf is concerned.

I don't know why you are so against NetSurf on OS3 with a native GUI.

[utri007]

I don't know sigle SDL program, that would be joy to use with classic amigas.

With that logic Rick Dangerous is too difficult program to 68k amigas, because xrick (sdl rick dangerous) is just a pain in the ass

[wawrzon]

aminet seems to be down atm, otherwise i would point you to a few simple sdl game ports i ve done. it was always my priority to have it working on classic at acceptable (if not always at full) speed.

[unusedunused]

>No. I did try compiling it once out of curiousity but it didn't >work. It wasn't worth more than five minutes of my time fixing it >since I have a native version anyway.

you can see the speed and can see if Cairo is a speedbrake or not.

but if you have a PC, you can  compare the speed with netsurf SDL 68k too.

I have no OS4, wawa seem not want it install again, so we cant do more speedcompare

We have done a speedtest that do stress the gfx part of netsurf most.
I measure the time a big html page need to show.there need lots AA text render, but no CSS layout is use.

I use the 74 kb history.html file of ibrowse for text.

It contain 831 lines simular as this

Fixed WACL PAGEURL not working for blocking embeds

Renamed WACL DELAY and HIDE options to DELAYIMAGES and HIDEIMAGES, whilst adding new DELAYEMBEDS and HIDEEMBEDS options to allow blocking of flash anims, etc

F


this file is show in 2 sec on a classic amiga with AA text.so this show, speed is optimal with such a big text file.And print of AA text is the most complex graphic action a browser do.

but a simple Forum page with only few text and some few graphic, need more than 15 sec on classic, even if that it is not load from internet.

that show, that you cant get more speed, by use of native GUI.

>I don't know why you are so against NetSurf on OS3 with a native >GUI.

I am not against a netsurf OS3 with native GUI, i only tell, i dont want spend time on it to find problems or write pixelconverter , because it bring no advantages of speed, usability.only scrollspeed on some GFX Cards can get faster with a non SDL version.but i can in SDL Version too add another pixelformat converter.I think thats much less work, as native GUI.and with new pixelformat converter, then no speedup of GUI and native is possible, because the Limit is the GFX Bus.

netsurf team have in roadmap to speedup netsurf, but nothing happen since now, frame support, java is miss, so i think when spend much time in Port a browser, better put in Port of OWB.

but if netsurf is easy possible to port and mainten as the SDL version, wy not release newer SDL Versions.

And if somebody want do a OS3 version with native GUI, he can of course do it, and if its here, offer at least same features and at least same speed as SDL versions, i use this

[apj]

I have compiled netsurf sdl and gtk for linux and sdl is faster.
This site:
sdl internal | sdl freetype  |    gtk
3.0 s         |      2.9 s       |   3.9 s

[chris]

you can see the speed and can see if Cairo is a speedbrake or not.

Cairo is no slower here than using graphics.library, until Cairo clipping is involved.  Hence why I use a mixture of both by default.
 

but if you have a PC, you can  compare the speed with netsurf SDL 68k too.

I have, it's painful.  But that's not really a fair test since my OS4 system is running at a completely different speed than my emulated 68k system.

I am not against a netsurf OS3 with native GUI, i only tell, i dont want spend time on it to find problems or write pixelconverter

OK, well that's up to you and I don't have a problem with that.  If somebody does want to spend their time on it you shouldn't be discouraging them though.

I would strongly argue that a native GUI does bring advantages.  For a start, the OS4 version has full drag'n'drop, tabs, multiple windows, history, cookies and hotlist windows, ARexx port...  Plus it looks and feels like a native browser, which means a lot to some people.

netsurf team have in roadmap to speedup netsurf, but nothing happen since now, frame support, java is miss

Things are progressing, probably more slowly than than any of the devs would like, but it is completely unfair to say nothing is happening.  There are only a few core developers and you can hardly expect them to spend all their free time on NetSurf.

@__artur

That's interesting, probably something to alert the other devs to.  I believe there is an overhead issue with text printing, but there might be something else causing it to be so much slower.

[utri007]

I would bet that 68k native netsurf would be at least 30%-50% faster, that would make it totally useable.

And it wouldn't lock computer for tens of seconds like sdl version do, wich would make it feel even more faster.

;edit: lock compter is actually not true, it locks itself during page loading and when it is full screen mode it is like it lock whole computer

[nicholas]

Ok... I haven't had a chance to go over the code in detail yet, but I'm going to see if it will be possible to compile the GTK version against the GTK-MUI includes from AROS.

Hopefully it shouldn't be too complicated or long-winded a process.

[NovaCoder]

Ok... I haven't had a chance to go over the code in detail yet, but I'm going to see if it will be possible to compile the GTK version against the GTK-MUI includes from AROS.

Hopefully it shouldn't be too complicated or long-winded a process.

I'd like to have a go at a 68k AGA port but I'll wait till the new IndivisionAGA Mrk2 is released so that I can do direct 65k colors (no conversion or C2P needed).

[nicholas]

I'd like to have a go at a 68k AGA port but I'll wait till the new IndivisionAGA Mrk2 is released so that I can do direct 65k colors (no conversion or C2P needed).

That sounds cool, my Amiga coding skills are a tad rusty so this is just a little play project for me to re-acclimatise myself.

The GTK-MUI wrapper seems like an ideal place to start before getting my hands dirty with lower level stuff.

I'll be working on a A4000 with Picasso IV and 060 but I can test on my A1200 with plain old AGA and 030 too.

[unusedunused]

>I would strongly argue that a native GUI does bring advantages. >For a start, the OS4 version has full drag'n'drop, tabs, multiple >windows, history, cookies and hotlist windows, ARexx port... Plus it >looks and feels like a native browser, which means a lot to some >people.

yes of course it bring some advantages, but the most problems, many pages can not show with netsurf correct and faster speed all amiga users want, is not possible (only for scrolling for non rgb16 PC Cards)

And this is what i tell, because i have do some tests and profiler builds to see if SDL have a slowdown.

here is a thread i do about this using gprof.i do more tests with render compleyx sites etc.the log i post was only a netsurf start

If you have a linux, you can build a SDL netsurf and use a profiler build,(dont forget to compile a SDL for profiler support).then you can compare with the GTK Version.

http://utilitybase.com/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=21&topic=1877

and because i have test this, its a lie, when i write, that a native Version is faster.

>Things are progressing, probably more slowly than than any of the >devs would like, but it is completely unfair to say nothing is >happening.  There are only a few core developers and you can >hardly expect them to spend all their free time on NetSurf.

I mean nothing is happen, on speedup since 1 year.netsurf devs have no time for gsoc.but when look large progress is done during netsurf was in gsoc.

Now 1 year is past, i know lots changes are in netsurf add, because libnsfb and other sdl files must be change, to compile with newest core.

currently libnsfb still not work with current core, so i need again modify 16 bit libnsfb to bring in the big endian pixelformat AOS need.

but when look, what inet sites can netsurf show more with newer versions, i mostly find none.


>I would bet that 68k native netsurf would be at least 30%-50% >faster, that would make it totally useable.

I have get the profiler working for ixemul 68k.On non other AOS system a profiler can work.

I explain  what a profiler is for non developer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profiling_%28computer_programming%29

And i see in the output that all SDL calls are not listet, so teh consuming is below 10%

all higher time usage is netsurf non graphic core.

even if a wonder happen and speedup really is 30-50 % its too few to be usable

remember this inet site need on classic 37 sec.so 50% speedup is a time of 25 sec.

I really notice no diffrence if the inet page need show 25 sec or 37 sec.all is too long in compare to other AOS browsers.

on other side use a X86 and winuae, page show is around 4 sec.

[fishy_fiz]

For me the biggest arguement for a non SDL version is so it's not restricted to graphics card users.