Who owns AmigaOS?

[djrikki]

OMG Franko your obsessed with the Doommaster!

[Franko]

OMG Franko your obsessed with the Doommaster!

He's my second cousin twice removed on my late fathers side...

[gertsy]

Could you ask old mother gertsy if I can bung everything on one of my sites and set the stuff to roam freely in the wild where they belong... ta very glad...

I had a chat to her Franko, she seemed keen, but once she found out you were related to Doomy she dropped the idea.  She also mumbled something about squirrels with peanut allergies...

[takemehomegrandma]

Now I was wondering; who owns what?

In essence: I don't think anybody can give a 100% accurate picture of the ownership situation.

It's a mess.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=616011&postcount=199

But one thing is sure though; *Hyperion doesn't own Amiga OS*, not any version of it. They have the right to develop their OS4 it and sell copies of it, and use Amiga OS components for that, but they can't for example sell it to some other company willing to pay $20,000,000 or whatever for taking over it, since they don't own it. They probably couldn't use it as collateral for a bank loans...

[takemehomegrandma]

Yes, but can Hyperion release future versions of AmigaOS under the "Amiga" name?

No.

They can use the name "amigaos", "amiga os", "amigaone" and "amiga one".

But not "Amiga".

[Franko]

I had a chat to her Franko, she seemed keen, but once she found out you were related to Doomy she dropped the idea.  She also mumbled something about squirrels with peanut allergies...

Damn cousin Doomy... spoils everything so he does...

Anyone know a good hitman...

(PS:me squiggles don't have peanut allergies, they love em... they hate cats though...

[Tension]

It has been long established that Nicholas (from these very forums) owns the rights to the name at least.

[number6]

In essence: I don't think anybody can give a 100% accurate picture of the ownership situation.

It's a mess.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=616011&postcount=199


Your freeamiga link is not Inquisitor's most recent writings, in case you did not know.

More current

#6

[cgutjahr]

@number6:

Please stop linking to tmhg postings, my head hurts.

@all:

The situation is like this: If Gateway ever properly acquired AmigaOS (there are doubts about this, see inquisitor's excellent "Amiga Docs" report), and if we pretend that the current incarnation of Amiga Inc. can indeed provide all the paperwork to prove that the AmigaOS rights were properly transfered from Gateway to them somehow (Hyperion itself made quite some interesting points about that particular story before they settled with AInc), the settlement between Amiga and Hyperion defines the current situation like this:

Amiga Inc. owns AmigaOS 3.1. They did, however, license most of the things you can do with a software product to Hyperion - exclusively. Amiga might own the OS, but they're not allowed to call it "AmigaOS" and they're only allowed to use it in places nobody will ever get to see it (like an Amiga-in-a-joystick remake, that's mentioned as an example in the settlement). They're not even allowed to license it to a third party (only Hyperion has that priviledge). The settlement always refers to "AmigaOS 3.1". It is unclear - to me, at least - if this means "this particular version of AmigaOS" or "all versions of AmigaOS up until 3.1". I tend to assume the latter.

Hyperion has an (exclusive) license to distribute, modify, market etc. AmigaOS (not just OS4, we're talking AmigaOS in general). They have an (exclusive) license to call it AmigaOS. And they do own AmigaOS 4 - except for the code parts that are still left over from AmigaOS 3.1, obviously. They also have an (exclusive) license to the term "AmigaOne".

The settlement also contains a clause that stops Amiga from competing with Hyperion in the OS departement. I assume that's why Hyperion alleges that Amiga can't license the "Amiga" name to CUSA if the latter are distributing AROS - because that would actually be competition.

The "Workbench" trademark has been registered in the US by Cloanto years ago - Amiga are trying to stop the registration from becoming valid. This particular litigation is still going on, but Amiga's performance matches those in their previous legal disputes (i.e. it's abysmal). Let's wait and see who wins that one.

(Edit: Added info that AInc can not license AmigaOS to other parties).

[number6]

@number6:

Please stop linking to tmhg postings, my head hurts.

@all:

The situation is like this: If Gateway ever properly acquired AmigaOS (there are doubts about this, see inquisitor's excellent "Amiga Docs" report), and if we pretend that the current incarnation of Amiga Inc. can indeed provide all the paperwork to prove that the AmigaOS rights were properly transfered from Gateway to them somehow (Hyperion itself made quite some interesting points about that particular story before they settled with AInc), the settlement between Amiga and Hyperion defines the current situation like this:

Amiga Inc. owns AmigaOS 3.1. They did, however, license most of the things you can do with a software product to Hyperion - exclusively. Amiga might own the OS, but they're not allowed to call it "AmigaOS" and they're only allowed to use it in places nobody will ever get to see it (like an Amiga-in-a-joystick remake, that's mentioned as an example in the settlement). The settlement always refers to "AmigaOS 3.1". It is unclear - to me, at least - if this means "this particular version of AmigaOS" or "all versions of AmigaOS up until 3.1". I tend to assume the latter.

Hyperion has an (exclusive) license to distribute, modify, market etc. AmigaOS (not just OS4, we're talking AmigaOS in general). They have an (exclusive) license to call it AmigaOS. And they do own AmigaOS 4 - except for the code parts that are still left over from AmigaOS 3.1, obviously. They also have an (exclusive) license to the term "AmigaOne".

The settlement also contains a clause that stops Amiga from competing with Hyperion in the OS departement. I assume that's why Hyperion alleges that Amiga can't license the "Amiga" name to CUSA if the latter are distributing AROS - because that would actually be competition.

The "Workbench" trademark has been registered in the US by Cloanto years ago - Amiga are trying to stop the registration from becoming valid. This particular litigation is still going on, but Amiga's performance matches those in their previous legal disputes (i.e. it's abysmal). Let's wait and see who wins that one.

In agreement with your summary, even the bit about your head hurting.
Your specific comment relating to Amiga OS4, also explains to some degree why "Amiga OS", the more general term is still referred to at amiga.com
One bit maybe worth mentioning for those who question why those in authority do not post. The AI/Hyperion non-agression pact, also from the settlement probably precludes this.

#6

[takemehomegrandma]

@cgutjahr

You are mostly only repeating what I said, but in other words.

The settlement always refers to "AmigaOS 3.1". It is unclear - to me, at least - if this means "this particular version of AmigaOS" or "all versions of AmigaOS up until 3.1". I tend to assume the latter.

The settlement both refers to Amiga OS 3.1 (the software), and OS4. What do you think is unclear?

And they do own AmigaOS 4 - except for the code parts that are still left over from AmigaOS 3.1, obviously.

Which is *exactly* my point:

Hyperion has built a house (OS4). They have built it by heavily relying on construction materials that are *loaned* (Amiga OS 3.1/"the software"), and then they added their own stuff to the construction as well of course.

Well, Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. And then Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which *are still* owned by Amiga Inc!

Now, who owns the house? Not Hyperion, not Amiga Inc. They both exclusively owns their respective components in the house, their respective bricks and planks that was used to build the house. The problem is that they are forever mixed up and can't be separated.

The settlement also contains a clause that stops Amiga from competing with Hyperion in the OS departement. I assume that's why Hyperion alleges that Amiga can't license the "Amiga" name to CUSA if the latter are distributing AROS - because that would actually be competition.

That is obviously Hyperion's interpretation of it. How *they want it* to be.

But you must understand that Amiga Inc and Commodore USA *is not the same entity*, each responsible for their own actions, *but not for the others*.

Amiga Inc is in their full right to license the Amiga name to Commodore USA, which they have done. But they can't license it in combination with OS3.1 (or an OS with that API). And to the best of my knowledge, they have *not* done that.

But if Commodore *on their own* (being an own entity, with no contractual obligations whatsoever with Hyperion) decides to ship their products with AROS, what can Hyperion do about it? Nothing! Amiga Inc hasn't breached their settlement with Hyperion, and Commodore doesn't have any relations whatsoever with Hyperion. And none of the mentioned parties owns or controls AROS.

The "Workbench" trademark has been registered in the US by Cloanto years ago - Amiga are trying to stop the registration from becoming valid.

If you still are referring to Commodore, I don't think it has been decided what their OS will be called...

[cgutjahr]

You are mostly only repeating what I said, but in other words.

Good thing you're repeating it one more time then.

The settlement both refers to Amiga OS 3.1 (the software), and OS4. What do you think is unclear?

It refers to "AmigaOS 3.1". Does that include older versions, i.e. AmigaOS 1.3? That question isn't directed at you, just something I'm not 100% sure about.

Now, who owns the house?

I'm sorry, but you don't get it - and please stop with the house comparisons. Hyperion has a product called AmigaOS 4. They own it. They're the ones who distribute, advertise and sell it.

This product is made of a lot of single components - none of which are owned by Hyperion, as far as we know. They licensed ExecSG from the Friedens (allegedly), they licensed the new DOS from Tony Wyatt, they licensed the TCP stack from Olaf Barthel and they licensed some old code from Amiga.

We're talking about the software business, not buildings.

Not Hyperion, not Amiga Inc. They both exclusively owns their respective components in the house,

I know you're going to go all nuts about what I'm going to say now, but I can't resist:

For whatever reason, the settlement uses a lot of words to first state that AInc still own AmigaOS and then declare that all of the rights usually associated with owning something are exclusively and indefinitely licensed to Hyperion.

AInc 'owns' AmigaOS 3.1, but they're not allowed to...

- call it AmigaOS 3.1
- modify it
- license it to some third party
- sell it (unless they bundle it with "gaming content" and hide it from the customer's eyes)

while Hyperion is allowed to do all of those things (Hyperion is even allowed to persecute alleged copyright infringements on its own).

While it is legally wrong to claim that Hyperion owns AmigaOS, for all practical purposes, they can act like they own it.

But you must understand that Amiga Inc and Commodore USA *is not the same entity*, each responsible for their own actions, *but not for the others*.

Correct. That's why Hyperion threatened legal action against AInc, not CUSA.

[jorkany]

They have an (exclusive) license to call it AmigaOS. And they do own AmigaOS 4 - except for the code parts that are still left over from AmigaOS 3.1, obviously.

And ExecSG. Hyperion licenses ExecSG from the Friedens. The Friedens even had to sue Hyperion to keep Hyperion from claiming it was their product.

The settlement also contains a clause that stops Amiga from competing with Hyperion in the OS departement. I assume that's why Hyperion alleges that Amiga can't license the "Amiga" name to CUSA if the latter are distributing AROS - because that would actually be competition.

Hyperion has no say in what CUSA does. Ben Hermans thought he had a case when he first heard about CUSA, saying "you can bet we'll look into this". But there is no lawsuit, no cease-and-desist, he had to go sit back down in his corner and shut up. AInc. swatted his chubby little fingers away.

[number6]

And ExecSG. Hyperion licenses ExecSG from the Friedens. The Friedens even had to sue Hyperion to keep Hyperion from claiming it was their product.



Hyperion has no say in what CUSA does. Ben Hermans thought he had a case when he first heard about CUSA, saying "you can bet we'll look into this". But there is no lawsuit, no cease-and-desist, he had to go sit back down in his corner and shut up. AInc. swatted his chubby little fingers away.

The Euro lawsuit is well documented elsewhere. It had nothing to do with any grievance of the developers with Hyperion.

I won't comment n Amiga Inc's ability to swat, since cgutjahr is absolutely correct when he describes their won/lost legal record as abysmal.

#6

[takemehomegrandma]

I'm sorry, but you don't get it - and please stop with the house comparisons.

We're talking about the software business, not buildings.

Actually, the house example isn't that bad!

We are talking derivate work and copyright issues. Another example then; two authors writes a book together; the first person writes every *even* page, and the second person writes every *odd* page. Each contribution is forever mixed into one single product, and can never be separated again.

Now, who *owns* the book?

Add to that that *Hyperion's contribution is merely add-ons and improvements* to "the software" (which is the "real" IP here). They haven't created Amiga OS, they have modified and extended it.

I know you're going to go all nuts about what I'm going to say now, but I can't resist:

For whatever reason, the settlement uses a lot of words to first state that AInc still own AmigaOS and then declare that all of the rights usually associated with owning something are exclusively and indefinitely licensed to Hyperion.

Not the perhaps most important one (at least if you want to get rich); the right to sell the rights to it.

In fact, Hyperion have no control or influence at all over a situation where the IP might be sold...

AInc 'owns' AmigaOS 3.1, but they're not allowed to...

No, they *owns* Amiga OS! They have let Hyperion use it (for the duration of the contract, to be more exact). Hyperion can in no way claim ownership of Amiga OS.

While it is legally wrong to claim that Hyperion owns AmigaOS, for all practical purposes, they can act like they own it.

Not quite. They can develop it, sell individual copies of it, and sub-license it. That's about it. They don't own the thing. They don't own the trade marks "amigaos", "amiga os", "amigaone" or "amiga one" either, but have the right to use it.

If some venture capitalist or tech firm would approach Hyperion and say: "Hey, that's one cool OS you've got there, and we think the "Amiga" name still has some value! Here is an offer, we will buy the whole shebang for $4,500,000 (the amount Ben Hermans claimed Amiga Inc paid for the IP in some post, I don't know if the sum is correct), how about it?", then Hyperion, as tempted as they may be, *can't* do business!

But if the same people instead would approach Amiga Inc, they *can* do business. Then all Amiga IP could be sold, including trade marks. And then the corporate entity "Amiga Inc" could then simply be terminated, along with Hyperion's "right to use" contract.

See the difference?

And guess what has actually happened?

Pluritas ... is currently accepting offers to acquire the worldwide rights to the AMIGA trademarks and associated intellectual property

Correct. That's why Hyperion threatened legal action against AInc, not CUSA.

Which is a bogus threat, since they would have no grounds for that.

[Ratte]

Acer

Rights and patents where bought from Escom AG by Gateway2000.
Gateway never transfered these rights and patents to AmigaInc..
They sold the brand and the right to use the AOS.

In 2007 Gateway where bought by Acer.