My evening with Commodore USA, LLC

[KThunder]

I have answered your question several times, you dont seem to actually be reading my posts.
He doesn't have money to do very much hardware development, noone does.
Natami and others are dream projects that more hobby than business.
And he is the one starting the company, putting his own money into it not us. He makes all the choices, and is targetting more than just us, he wants to sell people outside of what we consider the community.

[commodorejohn]

Trying to offer a differentiated product line is also a great way to ensure you never get off the ground. It takes a lot of money to do this stuff. He should focus on what has the best chances right now.

This is true, and it may well be that an x86 system is the best way to get started. I'd certainly be more than happy to wait and give them a chance to get into the swing of things before pursuing more exotic options; the problem is, it doesn't seem like they have any intention of doing so, or indeed that they're aware of any of the segments of the Amiga community at all. That may change (I certainly hope it does,) but so far it doesn't look like it.

[Darrin]

I have answered your question several times, you dont seem to actually be reading my posts.
He doesn't have money to do very much hardware development, noone does.
Natami and others are dream projects that more hobby than business.
And he is the one starting the company, putting his own money into it not us. He makes all the choices, and is targetting more than just us, he wants to sell people outside of what we consider the community.

OK, let's start again all civil.

The hardware development for Minimig and FPGA Arcade have already been done and they already exist as functioning models with a development team behind them.

He can sell all he wants outside of the Amiga community using the Commodore brand and he has the potential market of old Amiga users to sell to using custom cases and FPGA based "Amigas" running OS3.x.

The big issue is this Workbench 5 rubbish and promoting AmigaForver type products as the "new generation" Amiga OS when it clearly isn't.

[mbrantley]

takehome,

Then you have AI, the one that didn't pay its bills and went out of business and thus losing its right to buy back the OS. Is this current AI supposed to be the same company?

[EDanaII]

Trying to offer a differentiated product line is also a great way to ensure you never get off the ground. It takes a lot of money to do this stuff. He should focus on what has the best chances right now.

Unfortunately that's NOT true. Where all things are equal, as it is in the PC market, product differentiation is critical to success. Once again, I urge people to read the link on New Coke I provided.

Providing a retro-case does provided such differentiation, but has limited appeal. Providing a name-brand, OTOH, that isn't what people expect provides disappointment.



@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.

Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?


@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:

Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?


@ Those arguing "sock puppets."

Knock it off, please?

[AmigaHeretic]

Also this line seems to imply you think CUSA is also a scam? I would say that is completely off basis. CUSA has not asked for money and not delivered product (CyberstormG3, Boxer etc). CUSA has not engaged in coupon schemes ($50 coupon, Party Pack etc). CUSA has demonstrated they are not a thinly veiled hoax

Not yet.  We are talking about what they have done up to this point.  So far it doesn't look good.  

What will they do in the future?  No one knows obviously, but if everything they have done is an indicator, then it doesn't look good.


How have they demonstrated they are not thinly veiled hoax exactly?  I used to read many reports like yours about AI. People actually visited the AI office, played "foosball" their, saw some prototype stuff demonstrated, yet I think we can all see AI was a scam.

[save2600]

However, what do you think of C-USA's Workbench 5 marketing?  Perhaps they could call it "Morph Workbench 5"?

Wait... we're talking about CUSA using AROS. Anyway, this is where someone looking for success has got it right. Marketing micro's has always been a numbers game. For those involved that *wanted* to succeed en masse that is. Obviously not the agenda of the X1000 or SAM people, but ahem.... Hardware specs aside, let's just focus on OS's for a minute. Mac is up to 10.6, Windoze is at what... 7? MorphOS is at 2.6. AROS/Icaros is at 1.x?

Marketing wise, it's typical that they'll want to continue the practice of padding *any* numbers they can a bit. Average Joe that's out to purchase a new Commodore computer (not us by a long shot, but the people that are going to substantially monetarily supporting their products) is not going to be keen on low numbers or builds. Perception is everything. So yeah, from a marketing or viability standpoint, a Workbench 5 makes more sense than to call it 4.2 as Joe Blow hasn't been keeping up on the soap opera that has been Amiga trademarking and licensing these past 17+ years. If you're thinking Joe Blow may not even be interested in these products at all, I can tell you with certainty that there are a TON of people here in the States that have fond memories of their C64's. MANY of which never even heard of an Amiga computer!  lol   While that may sound F'd up to us, it is what it is.

Not sure if this was exactly the angle you were thinking, just trying to put things into a simplistic marketing perspective. Something the Commodore of yore hardly could be bothered with.  :lol:

-edited- my post slightly. Not sure what to make of the 'Commodore' or 'Workbench' usage marketing wise in relation to AROS, but I guess 'Commodore' would be better than 'GEOS'.  lmao  I'm amazed at the number of people I've met throughout the years that never heard of Amiga, but knew what a PET, Vic-20 and C64 was. Hell, even the Plus/4 got more airtime than the Amiga ever did thanks to those damn infomercials!

[commodorejohn]

@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.

Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other scrapes gunk off an animal hide, wraps it around himself, and calls it "fire." "This is a fire, rock-for-brain!" the first caveman proclaims. "That's a blanket."

Names matter when they indicate substantially different things.

[Darrin]

@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, eating beef, while the other sits in the distance eating cow shit complaining that THIS cow shit isn't the same as his mate's t-bone steak.

Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you fed?

Yes.

@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:

Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?

Yes, when they seem hell bent on destroying Amiga NG.

@ Those arguing "sock puppets."

Knock it off, please?

Sooty is not amused.

[Darrin]

Wait... we're talking about CUSA using AROS. Anyway, this is where someone looking for success has got it right. Marketing micro's has always been a numbers game. For those involved that *wanted* to succeed en masse that is. Obviously not the agenda of the X1000 or SAM people, but ahem.... Hardware specs aside, let's just focus on OS's for a minute. Mac is up to 10.6, Windoze is at what... 7? MorphOS is at 2.6. AROS/Icaros is at 1.x?

Marketing wise, it's typical that they'll want to continue the practice of padding *any* numbers they can a bit. Average Joe that's out to purchase a new Commodore computer (not us by a long shot, but the people that are going to substantially monetarily supporting their products) is not going to be keen on low numbers or builds. Perception is everything. So yeah, from a marketing or viability standpoint, a Workbench 5 makes more sense than to call it 4.2 as Joe Blow hasn't been keeping up on the soap opera that has been Amiga trademarking and licensing these past 17+ years.

Not sure if this was exactly the angle you were thinking, just trying to put things into a simplistic marketing perspective. Something the Commodore of yore hardly could be bothered with.  :lol:

Commodore OS5 would make even more sense as I would assume that people would expect a Commodore OS on Commodore computers and Commodore is more remembered amoungst the "not we" that Amiga.

[EDanaII]

@ CommodoreJohn:

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other scrapes gunk off an animal hide, wraps it around himself, and calls it "fire." "This is a fire, rock-for-brain!" the first caveman proclaims. "That's a blanket."

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to those who were arguing Aros/MorphOS/OS 4.0 weren't "Amiga." In this instance, they are all "fire."


@ Darrin:

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, eating beef, while the other sits in the distance eating cow shit complaining that THIS cow shit isn't the same as his mate's t-bone steak.

Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you fed?

So, changing the analogy to something completely different proves the original analogy wrong?

Yes, when they seem hell bent on destroying Amiga NG.

The operative word here being "seem." "You're honor, the accused 'seems' to have killed the victim" just won't hold up in a court of law.

Now, before you tear into me as you have Dammy and others, please reread the thread and note that I'm in the Don't-Call-It-Amiga camp.

Sooty is not amused.

Does this mean that I too am a sock puppet?

[Darrin]

@ CommodoreJohn:@ Darrin:

So, changing the analogy to something completely different proves the original analogy wrong?

Your original anaology was critically flawed.  It needed "fixing".

The operative word here being "seem." "You're honor, the accused 'seems' to have killed the victim" just won't hold up in a court of law.

Ah, I see you have called the police out to your house because your neighbour has threatened to kill you?  This is a serious waste of police time, please call us back AFTER he has killed you!

Now, before you tear into me as you have Dammy and others, please reread the thread and note that I'm in the Don't-Call-It-Amiga camp.

Does this mean that I too am a sock puppet?

I have read it, but it doesn't excuse C-USA's actions.

You can be "Sue".  

(Actually, as an American you're probably not familiar with Sooty & Sweep... and Sue)...

[Khephren]

They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.

legally shaky ground though, don't you think? Licensing out IP for 'workbench5' when the court has told you you've lost the rights to 'Amiga OS4' and 'workbench 4', and Hyperion has the right to continue dev on that product (presumably to other version numbers).


  As for Hyperion, no product, no legal action. When commodore they have something to show, i'm sure Hyperion will have something to say. As i'm a classic user, I can just get out the popcorn and watch more amiga soap opera.

[Digiman]

@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga

Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.

Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?


@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:

Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?

Excuse me but a Windows compatible stock x86 motherboard running x86 PC Linux and an Amiga emulator that can only emulate AGA and 680x0 at best is NOT a new Amiga. It is a virtual recreation of a 1992 released model of a real Amiga.

IF they hadn't marketed their machines as actual successors to real Amigas from the 90s they wouldn't be getting so much flack, and deserved it is too. Workbench 5 my ass.

Truth is, this 'new Amiga' is actually inferior to a PPC upgrade G4 based A4000D with Toccata 16 bit sound card. Can you play Wipeout 2097 like a real 1992 A4000D with a 1994/5 PPC card and BlizzardVision? Nope! So it is not an Amiga (it is a custom PC case which runs Windows/x86 Linux and not OS4/MOS/WB 3.1) and even then as proved above it can never even rival the best of what 1990s real Amigas had to offer.  

That is why there is so much flack for C= USA. And there is no positive argument for them in this area. Unless they start marketing their creations they intend to produce as nothing more than novelty Amiga lookalike PCs to run WinUAE/UAE on they deserve all the flack they get.

If they want to be taken seriously the least they could do is hire the guy trying to port AROS to PS3 with drivers for the hypervisor and then pick up the phone and negotiate a price for PS3 slim motherboards and stick those in their new cases. Or NatAmi come to that. Anything else is just a PC in disguise with a massive markup for what is just a novelty keyboard and novelty case that has bugger all to do with Amiga actual from 80s/90s technically

[mbrantley]

OK, I just spent some time reading the 43-page settlement between AI and Hyperion. It's clear to me that AI cannot market or allow a licensee to market an operating system with software architecture that is substantially similar to AmigaOS. That's why no C=USA "Amiga" running AROS. (Though certainly an end user can install AROS if it will run on the hardware.)

The settlement agreement also stipulates that neither AI nor any licensee can market a product that is billed as "an Amiga operating system."

So who here wants an "Amiga" that doesn't run an Amiga or Amiga-like operating system? And why, for goodness sake?

Does calling it an Amiga and using the name "Workbench 5" on a Linux distro that has been redressed to resemble the Amiga operating system violate the settlement agreement? I really don't know for sure, though it sure smacks of violating the spirit. My layman's opinion (that's all it is, I will admit) on the matter is that the area is a gray one.

But if Commodore itself (the one run into the ground by Mehdi Ali and associates) had survived to sell Amiga-branded computers running Windows or Linux and not "an Amiga operating system" I would howl and "harp" and keep on doing it.

"Amiga" means something.

And the Amiga operating system *IS* a continuation.

I gotta go to work. See y'all later.

[WolfToTheMoon]

If they want to be taken seriously the least they could do is hire the guy trying to port AROS to PS3 with drivers for the hypervisor and then pick up the phone and negotiate a price for PS3 slim motherboards and stick those in their new cases. Or NatAmi come to that.

Maybe they should invent a time machine? Or Warp drive? because that's as realistic as your proposal(PS3 boards or Natami).