FPGA Replay Board

[psxphill]

There is no "emulation"..

Please don't start this discussion again, emulation doesn't mean what you want it to.

[Hattig]

There is no "emulation"..

Indeed not, any FPGA implementation is a re-implementation of the hardware, not an emulation of the hardware. Emulation implies a software shim between the native hardware and the emulated hardware.

On an FPGA, there is no native hardware, it's just a collection of logic that has to be configured into BEING something, in this case a re-implementation of the Amiga hardware.

However, when I read his post I thought he meant running emulation software (e.g., a ZX Spectrum emulator) on the re-implemented Amiga. Heh.

[psxphill]

Indeed not, any FPGA implementation is a re-implementation of the hardware, not an emulation of the hardware. Emulation implies a software shim between the native hardware and the emulated hardware.

That is the problem. That is what you infer, but that is not what it implies at all.
 
While I hate to quote Wikipedia because you'll just l0lz
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator
 
"A hardware emulator is an emulator which takes the form of a hardware device. Examples include the DOS-compatible card installed in some old-world Macintoshes like Centris 610 or Performa 630 that allowed them to run PC programs and FPGA-based hardware emulators."
 
If anything an fpga could be more of an emulation than a software emulator, as generally software emulators only simulate the individual chips & using an fpga you can get closer to using the same techniques as the original chips. It's only recently that a bunch of chip software simulations that have been strung together has actually been referred to as emulation, previously it was only hardware based solutions that qualified.
 
If you're going to argue about what an fpga behaving like an amiga is or isn't, then please use the correct terminology.

[Hattig]

It's not an "emulator", as the commonly understood meaning is "software [-implemented] emulator". We then get people who think Minimig is just UAE running in an FPGA, when that is most certainly not the case.

I might grant "Hardware [-Implemented] Emulator". But you have to be specific in this case, because of the above.

[billt]

@all,

can we please take the emulation/not emulation argument elsewhere? Perhaps the FPGA for Dummies thread where it has already overtaken more useful aspects of the topic, so we can keep this thread about the Replay product?

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59952&highlight=fpga+dummies

[JimDrew]

As an emulation author, using both hardware and software to perform emulations, I can tell you that if the device is not the original then it is being emulated... period.   To emulate is to mimic.  So, an emulator reproduces the original object.  Sheesh, I am not sure why the terminology matters to some.   I am just interested in making some emulators using the FPGA hardware because of the accuracy that is possible.

So, I will ask my original (non-emulated) question again... where can this hardware be purchased along with the 060 add-on?

[Kremlar]

I concur.  
 
Is it an Amiga?  No.
Is it running Amiga software by pretending to be an Amiga?  Yes.
Clearly it is emulating an Amiga.
 
It is an emulator.  Different than WinUAE, granted, but still an emulator.

[Hattig]

My only issue is that people, when they see "emulator" assume it's something like UAE and therefore not a real Amiga, and that it would have all the issues that software emulators have.

So call it a hardware level emulator, or hardware re-implementation, or FPGA implementation. But not 'emulator' in isolation.

Ask any Minimig owner if they feel they are running a real Amiga - they would say yes. There's no translation of CPU opcodes going on, there's no software implementation of the chipset. That's because it is running the CPU opcodes directly on the hardware, it's hitting the chipset registers directly in the hardware, and so on.  It's not the original hardware, no. But we don't say that AGA emulates OCS do we?

Next up will be someone saying it's running on software because the FPGA is programmed using a netlist compiled from VHDL, which looks like software to them.

[psxphill]

It's not an "emulator", as the commonly understood meaning is "software [-implemented] emulator". We then get people who think Minimig is just UAE running in an FPGA, when that is most certainly not the case.

I get why you don't want to call it an emulator. It goes back to the "I hate winuae, winuae is an emulator, therefore I hate emulators, I love fpga, therefore fpga isn't an emulator" logical fallacy.
 
Pandering to the uneducated is stupid.
 

Next up will be someone saying it's running on software because the FPGA is programmed using a netlist compiled from VHDL, which looks like software to them.

You'll change your mind when we have a CPU with a million cores and someone writes an emulator that dedicates each core to one gate. For now you're too hung up on implementation details, rather than concepts.

[Lord Aga]

Enough with the god damn emulator discussion !
You poison each and every thread with it. Can't you call this exactly what it is ?
It is FPGA Replay ! Call it FPGA Replay ! When can I buy FPGA Replay ? What will be the price of this FPGA Replay ? What can I run on my FPGA Replay ? It may be an emulator. It may not be an emulator. Who the hell cares ! It's FPGA Replay and it will do stuff. Respect other people's work and don't be an A-hole !

[psxphill]

It may not be an emulator. Who the hell cares !

Apparently freqmax & Hattig do. I'm not sure whether they are trolling or not. But Jim Drew said he wanted to write some emulations for it and they both jumped on him.

[AmigaClassicRule]

* munches on popcorn *

[mikej]

As an emulation author, using both hardware and software to perform emulations, I can tell you that if the device is not the original then it is being emulated... period.   To emulate is to mimic.  So, an emulator reproduces the original object.  Sheesh, I am not sure why the terminology matters to some.   I am just interested in making some emulators using the FPGA hardware because of the accuracy that is possible.

So, I will ask my original (non-emulated) question again... where can this hardware be purchased along with the 060 add-on?

HI Jim,
Production has started on the next batch although there are still some component sourcing issues.
The website is http://www.fpgaarcade.com

You can mail me at the address on the site to discuss.
Cheers,
Mike

[Hattig]

Whatever. I don't hate emulators, I just see that they're massively different if you consider a software implemented emulator, and a hardware implemented emulator.  We had the arguments a long time ago because of LOTS of people thinking the Minimig was UAE running on an ARM or something, and then it was recognised that using the term "emulator" on its own was not useful.

I don't want to argue about this terminology to be honest, but a hardware implementation in my mind is very different from a software emulation. And in terms of potential user confusion, it's best to keep away from the "emulator" word. "Re-implementation" is a really good term IMO, it says exactly what it is.

[AmigaClassicRule]

Whatever. I don't hate emulators, I just see that they're massively different if you consider a software implemented emulator, and a hardware implemented emulator.  We had the arguments a long time ago because of LOTS of people thinking the Minimig was UAE running on an ARM or something, and then it was recognised that using the term "emulator" on its own was not useful.

I don't want to argue about this terminology to be honest, but a hardware implementation in my mind is very different from a software emulation. And in terms of potential user confusion, it's best to keep away from the "emulator" word. "Re-implementation" is a really good term IMO, it says exactly what it is.

+1

Biggest reason why I will never own Minimig because it is completely burned in my brain and will not change is nothing more than UAE running on ARM. However, FPGA is completely custom based, real chipset, in my opinion the new and latest Amiga upgrade had Commodore continued in the line of 68k Amiga. Is why I did preorder for FPGA and did not spend a dime buying Minimig even if it is out already for sale.

If I am going to be running "emulator" in a hardware and pay for it, might as will use WinUAE and it is for free and no need for additional keyboard/mouse/monitor/space. But since FPGA is "Re-implementation" I will buy it

[psxphill]

I don't want to argue about this terminology to be honest, but a hardware implementation in my mind is very different from a software emulation. And in terms of potential user confusion, it's best to keep away from the "emulator" word. "Re-implementation" is a really good term IMO, it says exactly what it is.

That argument reminds me of the "there is no such thing as fish" argument.
 
http://swimmingunderwaterblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/there-is-no-such-thing-as-fish.html