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Author Topic: PS3 security is "epic fail"  (Read 54270 times)

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Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #164 from previous page: January 04, 2011, 09:27:04 PM »
Quote from: ejstans;603789
Well, I did take the time now, and you're wrong. The root key is the one thing they didn't get (it's embedded in silicon after all, and each console has its own unique key) but they do claim to have broken the chain of trust anyway. Let's see how effective it is.


i am wrong?... what about this then..

Quote
GeoHot has gone a step further and simply published the PS3's "root key".


read it here...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
 

Offline ejstans

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #165 on: January 04, 2011, 10:08:43 PM »
Quote from: A1260;603854
i am wrong?... what about this then..



read it here...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
Some confusion in these reports. Geohot apparently managed to break into metldr via an exploit. Then he could grab the public metldr key and derive the private one in the exact same manner fail0ver did with the other loader. The difference is metldr is lower-level and I think can be used to compromise the rest of the loaders without requiring an exploitable bug in them.

metldr is also supposed to not be updatable and I think I understand their reasoning behind that now: it seems to be verified by the hardware key, but the hardware key is supposed to be unique per console so "how can Sony update it"? Well, who knows, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating...
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Offline olsen

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2011, 07:53:54 AM »
Quote from: ejstans;603801
Well, the PS3 does have hardware verification; it's what provides the basis of the chain of trust. The loaders (or at least one of them) are verified by the hardware as part of entering the isolated SPU (SPE) state. In the 27C3 slides (which I read but didn't watch the presentation) it is claimed that the bootldr is not updatable (residing in ROM?). Perhaps only the bootldr is verified by hardware, and it in turn is responsible for the rest of the loaders and they have broken that chain.


Yes, the hardware verification is there. I confused it with how and where the keys are stored. On the XBOX360 the keys are on the die, which is why you cannot extract them by means of a software exploit. The PS3 does not store the keys on the die.

The presentation complements the slides. You might want to take a look, as the slides alone tell only part of the story.

Quote

It's kind of stupid, because then this system basically offers no more protection than a hardware cipher as in the PSP (I am not familiar at all with the X360), whereas if all the loaders were updatable, it'd offer protection precisely against this sort of thing where the chain of trust is broken along the way (which is also fascilitated by writing a critical piece of software in such insecure language as C...)


If I understand this correctly, the one loader bootstrapping the system cannot be updated, and because the private key it uses has been recovered, it is possible to replace the code the bootstrap loader will load.

The use of the 'C' programming language made the security architecture vulnerable. But even then the vulnerability ought to have had limited impact. As you wrote, the overall design is strange, and how certain parts are implemented (the 27C3 presentation raises questions about encrypted storage, and how the hypervisor design is unsuitable as a security measure) make you wonder how it was designed and reviewed.

It probably was not independently reviewed.
 

Offline ejstans

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #167 on: January 05, 2011, 10:40:14 AM »
Quote from: olsen;603969
Yes, the hardware verification is there. I confused it with how and where the keys are stored. On the XBOX360 the keys are on the die, which is why you cannot extract them by means of a software exploit. The PS3 does not store the keys on the die.

The presentation complements the slides. You might want to take a look, as the slides alone tell only part of the story.
Yeah, I had a look last night and it clarified some things.

Quote from: olsen;603969
If I understand this correctly, the one loader bootstrapping the system cannot be updated, and because the private key it uses has been recovered, it is possible to replace the code the bootstrap loader will load.
This is apparently what the situation is presented as. However, it is worth pointing out that at the time of the conference this was not exactly so, because they hadn't compromised metldr at that time. Actually, what they said then was that a non-revokable downgrade method exists, which if true (and before I quit, I was actually working on one myself so I believe it is not impossible for one to exist!), does mean unlimited homebrew on all currently extant PS3s. It does not necessarily mean unlimited piracy (because new games could require a new firmware with new keys and whitelist to block the old compromised ones), but this situation would actually be quite nice :)

But the claim that it's impossible to even securely upgrade the firmware relies on whether metldr really cannot be updated. As far as I can tell, they claim that it can't be updated because it's being signed and encrypted with the per console hardware keys, and how could Sony release an update encrypted with the right unique keys? Well, even one of their members acknowledged that Sony can do it if they happen to have a database of the hardware keys mapped to eg serial number or something. But even if Sony doesn't have that, I still say wait and see, because even if I, or even the talented hackers of fail0verflow are unable to realize how Sony could counter this, that's an argument from ignorance.  Similar circumstances existed on the PSP, and although the argument for Sony being screwed then seemed reasonable at first, it turned out somewhat differently when they managed to scrounge up a new secret key that put them back in control. Actually they managed to do this twice, the second time even when their hardware key had been compromised!

But I'm certainly not saying that Sony definitely will be able to pull such a rabbit out of the hat with the PS3, and if history is anything to judge by, even if they do, it might well be just a stopgap measure (especially considering the sorry state of the PS3 security model in reality rather than on paper), but somehow Sony seems to be quite a bit clever in actually getting the horses back in the barn. Or at least they seem to be more clever in getting them back, than they are in making sure they never leave in the first place, hehehe :)

Quote from: olsen;603969
The use of the 'C' programming language made the security architecture vulnerable. But even then the vulnerability ought to have had limited impact. As you wrote, the overall design is strange, and how certain parts are implemented (the 27C3 presentation raises questions about encrypted storage, and how the hypervisor design is unsuitable as a security measure) make you wonder how it was designed and reviewed.

It probably was not independently reviewed.
Yes. I think people really overestimate the importance of security to these companies. Geohot, for example, claimed that he was able to defeat Sony's billions of dollars spent on PS3 security. A good ego stroke perhaps, but that dollar claim doesn't have anything to do with reality :)

Heh, with the PSP, they originally even forgot to turn on their security scheme! Yeah, that's right, the first PSPs would happily ignore all the authentication mechanism and run any old unsigned code, straight out of the box! I'm pretty sure billions of dollars were not spent on that either :)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 10:44:42 AM by ejstans »
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Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2011, 02:28:15 PM »
the drama continues...

Quote
iPhone hacker publishes secret Sony PlayStation 3 key

"The complete console is compromised - there is no recovery from this," said pytey, a member of the fail0verflow group of hackers, who revealed the initial exploit at the Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin in December.

"This is as bad as it gets - someone is getting into serious trouble at Sony right now."

read more here...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12116051


and here is sonys response....
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/sony-responds-to-ps3-hacks
 

Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #169 on: January 07, 2011, 04:53:46 PM »
its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...
 

Offline runequester

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #170 on: January 07, 2011, 05:02:57 PM »
Im guessing they'll go the microsoft route, and start banning modified (in software or hardware) consoles from the playstation network.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10790835

An older but related story, and I guess where this is leading in most corners of the world: Use the law to strike it down. Next stop: CD ROM burners and blank paper
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 05:07:33 PM by runequester »
 

Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #171 on: January 07, 2011, 05:43:26 PM »
i dont think they can do that, then they will ban their legit consumers to...
 

Offline Arkhan

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2011, 03:57:20 AM »
Quote from: runequester;604646
Im guessing they'll go the microsoft route, and start banning modified (in software or hardware) consoles from the playstation network.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10790835

An older but related story, and I guess where this is leading in most corners of the world: Use the law to strike it down. Next stop: CD ROM burners and blank paper


most people hackin the fuck out of ps3s dont really go on the PSN, seeing as they just sniff the download links and download the games for free and whatnot.

lol
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


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Offline orange

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2011, 09:12:37 AM »
Quote from: A1260;604640
its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...



I doubt it. more likely, they released/"leaked" private keys themselves.
see how popular PS2 is.
Better sorry than worry.
 

Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #174 on: January 13, 2011, 12:53:20 PM »
heres some more news...

Quote
Nilay here -- let's take a look at what's going on. This isn't a "lawsuit" in the traditional sense, since Sony hasn't filed a complaint for copyright infringement or whatever against Geohot and friends. Instead, the company appears to be trying to shove the genie back in the bottle and have the jailbreak and any information about the jailbreak removed from the web by filing a temporary restraining order. That might work in the short term -- Geohot's already pulled his pages down -- but history suggests that the forces of paperwork rarely triumph over the righteous anger of nerds, and that this code is out there for good. That said, we'll see what the court says tomorrow; although we very much doubt Sony's melodramatic proposed motion and order will be granted as written, we wouldn't be surprised if some sort of order is eventually granted -- and then from there a formal lawsuit is likely just a few days away.

read more..
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/sony-sues-geohot-fail0verflow-over-ps3-exploits/
 

Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #175 on: January 13, 2011, 12:54:59 PM »
and even more news...

Quote
Dave Touretzky, a Research Professor in the Computer Science Department and the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition at Carnegie Mellon University, has challenged Sony's legal standing in the case against PS3 hackers and mirrored Geohot's site on the university's servers.

Quote
Our friends at Sony are having another bad day: i.e., doing something breathtakingly stupid, presumably because they don't know any better. This time they're suing George Hotz for publishing PS3 jailbreak information, as reported by EnGadget and Attack of the Fan Boy. Hotz's jailbreak allows PS3 owners to run the software of their choice on a machine they have legally purchased. His site is geohot.com.

Free speech (and free computing) rights exist only for those determined to exercise them. Trying to suppress those rights in the Internet age is like spitting in the wind.

We will help our friends at Sony understand this by mirroring the geohot jailbreak files at Carnegie Mellon.

read more...
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/carnegie-mellon-professor-challenges-sony-mirrors-geohots-site-75577/
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:57:55 PM by A1260 »
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #176 on: January 13, 2011, 01:09:22 PM »
I should have called it that Sony would respond by suing everyone involved. Second guess would be: Brick everyones console and give them a discount voucher for a Playstation 4. :roflmao:
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Offline psxphill

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #177 on: January 13, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »
Quote from: A1260;604640
its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...

It's too soon to say that.
 

Offline A1260

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #178 on: January 13, 2011, 07:09:39 PM »
when sony start suing instead of plugging the security hole, then you know they cant fix the problem and have lost.
 

Offline ejstans

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #179 on: January 13, 2011, 07:42:50 PM »
Quote from: A1260;606447
when sony start suing instead of plugging the security hole, then you know they cant fix the problem and have lost.
Something to consider:
Quote from: fail0verflow
Reminder: do NOT update to future versions. PS3s are permanently owned  through hardware, but Sony can throw roadblocks in your way via SW.
"It is preferable not to travel with a dead machine."

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