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Author Topic: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?  (Read 21856 times)

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Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #119 from previous page: December 27, 2010, 06:43:58 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602192
I suggest you listen to this, which was produced for and recorded from a Mega Drive, before you make any assumptions about its sound capabilities.


I'll have to give that a listen when I get home. Using a crippled PC at work here  :(

BTW: I've owned several Model 1's, Model 2's and Model 3's throughout the years and am intimately familiar with how all of Sega's consoles sound. Currently have a model 2, 32X and CD unit (fugly combo if ever there was one). You're right about the 2 and 3 system though. Awful sound compared to the original! Video even took a slight dive too  :(

Same with SID on the C64. C64c's SID sounds 'different' and to these ears, not always in the most flattering way.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 06:46:37 PM by save2600 »
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »
Considering Commodore's management, at least AGA came out of the door, with all its flaws...

But what was needed were AGA Amigas at more price points.

£399 - Amiga 1200
£599 - Amiga 1400 (28MHz '020, 2MB + 2MB, HD Floppy) "50% more for over twice the power!"
£799 - Amiga 2200 (28MHz '020, 2MB + 2MB, HD Floppy, External Case*)
... Amiga 4000 '030 ... Amiga 4000 '040

* The Amigas from 1992 onwards should have migrated to a small chassis (similar in size to the original PS2 for example) containing the hardware, and an external keyboard. The chassis would have had the motherboard and two 3.5" bays (two floppies or one floppy and a HD), and access for memory upgrades (SIMM slots) and trapdoor expansion.
 

Offline Nostalgiac

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2010, 07:59:41 PM »
ignoring all PC related things... when the 1200/4000 came out,I had a 2000/030 with SCSI setup.
The 1200 setup was a severe downgrade despite AGA.
The 4000/040 setup was way to expensive for my then student budget.
.. and the 4000/030 a rather little upgrade where a graphic board would have gotten me much more.

Sad to say, I join the "to little, to late" club :/

Tom UK
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c128/1541/1750/1351 with Dolphin Dos and eprom burner
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2010, 09:01:04 PM »
Quote from: motorollin;601926
Well I know that now ;) How did they make games look so good with so few colours?!

color cycling is one of those techniques to achieve that. :)
Quote

Is that more to do with lazy coders not using AGA to its full potential, or was AGA really not much of an improvement?
I wonder that myself as well often enough..
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2010, 09:04:49 PM »
I'm a little surprised to hear that everybody has such trouble with the Genesis/Mega Drive - the sound on my model 2 is perfectly fine. Guess I just got lucky?

In any case, say what you want about whatever the console board does to it, but the Yamaha OPM is a damn fine chip. It's just a shame so few Genesis titles really utilized it to any significant portion of its potential.
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Offline motorollin

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #124 on: December 27, 2010, 09:14:20 PM »
Quote from: Speelgoedmannetje;602233
color cycling is one of those techniques to achieve that. :)

Plans for tomorrow: Re-play OCS games looking for colour cycling :)
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #125 on: December 27, 2010, 10:13:03 PM »
I now have time to answer this.
Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
Games like Kid Chaos and some of the stuff in Mr. Nutz (for 2 examples) show quite clearly that an aga machine would be capable of Sonic, especially being that theyre only ocs/ecs games and have similar speed scrolling with lots of parallax (more than sonic).
..and animated backgrounds and foregrounds (not only by palette cycling), tons of animated pickups, 15 ring sprites bouncing around? Did you ever consider these technicalities when playing Sonic? Most of them are made possible with that humble CPU by using a tile-based graphics mode with 80 (?) discrete sprites.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
While conversions where often better for the megadrive, when the amiga was used properly it's a superior experience in my opinion.
I respect your opinion but I think that it's biased. So is mine, probably, so let's stick to technicalities, shall we?

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
Movement is usually somewhat slicker in a well coded amiga game and sound is superior
Usually slicker? Most Mega Drive games run at full framerate AFAIK, just like Amiga games. If you're talking about character movement, I can only disagree with you and laugh.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
Sword of Sodan was infinately better on the amiga for example,.. sprites had to be shrunk for the megadrive version due to technical restrictions,..... just one example of a decently made amiga game.
Wow, a single game port is better pulled off on the Amiga than on the Mega Drive... Just goes to prove your point, eh?

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
As for being "crippled" by the amigas hardware, it's hardware is what it's hardware is.
Did you bother reading the whole message? The Amiga displays 8 3-color sprites without help from the copper. I'm not saying that it's impossible to display more (or even particularly hard), but to quickly move around a lot of sprites on the screen requires either careful copper programming or fake BOB sprites, as far as I understand, which by comparison to the Mega Drive (where you have a whole bunch of colorful sprites, all with according x/y registers) is a lot of work (and in the case of BOBs, also CPU hogging). I'm not saying that the chipset is crippled, but developers are crippled by it if they try at more sprites. Time and effort spent simply putting things on the screen could be used to develop better games.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
To get the best results out of it you have to program specifically for it, buch like any machine. Would you begrudge a megadrive game developer for using its sprites and other custom hardware ?
No, why would I? Of course you have to program according to the specifications of the machine, and in that regard, the Mega Drive is far superior when it comes to tile-based action games like Kid Chaos and Sonic.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
It's hardly crippling and inflexible either,... the very nature of the amigas custom hardware makes it flexible and no-one can really say what it can and cant do due to that flexibility.
Again, I get the feeling that you didn't read most of what I wrote. I never said that the hardware is inflexible. I said that parallax scrolling layers, when pulled off on the Amiga at a decent enough speed to run a game engine on top, it's usually very inflexible (as evident from Kid Chaos, where it's just a very narrow repeating background pattern divided in vertical strips that scroll at different speed) I agree with you that OCS, ECS and AGA are all very flexible -- and that is their strength. The Mega Drive has very specific-purpose hardware which makes it better for scrolling tile-based games (which were quite a big share of the game market in the early 90s). AGA surpasses it in many other areas (for example you can have multiple transparent playfields simply by the bitplane paradigm, although you still have to copy a  lot of data around to scroll them about), but for this type of game it's comparably awkward.

My original point -- you won't be able to port Sonic 2 to a stock A1200 -- can only be disproved in one way (and boy, do I hope someone does).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 10:20:32 PM by Linde »
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #126 on: December 27, 2010, 10:16:46 PM »
Quote from: motorollin;602237
Plans for tomorrow: Re-play OCS games looking for colour cycling :)
It's easy to spot :) The copper can change the color palette every scanline without keeping the CPU busy. It makes for beautiful gradients and quite flexible colors. I think Lionheart is the prime example, but the game itself is not so fun IMO. Had much more fun with Fire & Ice
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 10:20:57 PM by Linde »
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #127 on: December 27, 2010, 10:30:45 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602243
It's easy to spot :) The copper can change the color palette every scanline without keeping the CPU busy. It makes for beautiful gradients and quite flexible colors. I think Lionheart is the prime example, but the game itself is not so fun IMO. Had much more fun with Fire & Ice


That's not colour cycling in the normal meaning for computers.

The copper can make beautiful gradients, and certainly enhances Lionheart (which I found to be a good game myself). Fire and Ice had some neat copper effects too, the watery reflections at the bottom of the screen for example.

The Megadrive had very specific hardware to do 16 colour tiled graphics, where each tile can select its palette to allow for 64 colours total. Tile based graphics systems NEED sprites however. The Amiga did have BOBs and a Blitter, but I don't exactly know how many BOBs could be blitted per frame in, e.g., 32 colours.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #128 on: December 27, 2010, 10:43:23 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's the "color cycling" Speelgoedmannetje was talking about, though.
 

Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #129 on: December 27, 2010, 11:12:23 PM »
hey guys, lets keep it polite and friendly :)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2010, 11:14:43 PM »
Quote from: Hattig;602245
The Amiga did have BOBs and a Blitter, but I don't exactly know how many BOBs could be blitted per frame in, e.g., 32 colours.
It's pretty much a function of object size and number of planes versus the amount of blitter time available per frame. I don't have any specific numbers, though.
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Offline Hattig

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2010, 12:00:00 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;602252
It's pretty much a function of object size and number of planes versus the amount of blitter time available per frame. I don't have any specific numbers, though.


That's true - and restoring the background the BOB overwrote originally too, even if that is a faster block blit function.

The Megadrive's sprites (max 20 per scanline, although the hardware could manage 80 sprites) were up to 32x32 in size. Obviously AGA sprites were 64 pixels by anything, but in 16-colours you're limited to a mere 4 sprites on a scanline, requiring some software management to have more on a screen - not particularly stressful software, it was common on the C64 and so on to do this. AGA certainly could have benefited from more sprites, but at least there were BOBs.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2010, 12:57:32 AM »
Quote
   
Quote from: Franko;601876
You know something I don't like all that eye candy either and now for the life of me I can't think why I run Workbench in 128 colours !!!

There is a reason but I just can't remember right now... this is my typical everyday Workbench... :)



Workbench? 128 colors? humbug!
Ambient - truecolor
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Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2010, 02:04:25 AM »
@ Iggy

Read the Post... I don't like silly eye candy... :)

To seen a hideous desktop like the one you posted I just switch on a MAC and say boak... :)

Ambient -truecolour !!! more like awe gawd my miggie now looks like any other crappy PC or MAC might as well gouge me eyes out... :)
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #134 on: December 28, 2010, 02:25:09 AM »
Quote from: Franko;602275
@ Iggy

Read the Post... I don't like silly eye candy... :)

To seen a hideous desktop like the one you posted I just switch on a MAC and say boak... :)

Ambient -truecolour !!! more like awe gawd my miggie now looks like any other crappy PC or MAC might as well gouge me eyes out... :)

I LOVE eye candy! I want a display that doesn't make me long for a crappy PC or Mac (yes I know I'm using a Mac, but NOT OSX).
BTW Franko, you're still using a Mac for internet access aren't you? Do you turn you displays down to 256 color when browsing (God that would look awful).

As NG hardware becomes more powerful and our emulation of your hardware is perfected you're not going to have much of an excuse to claim you want to keep those crappy workbench screens. Soon it should be possible to emulate all hardware (even that crappy AGA stuff).
Hell, if I was using an Amiga, I wouldn't be relying on AGA , I'd have an RTG card. And I wouldn't boot into one of those ugly Workbench screens. Even without a PPC you can run Scalos,. Workbench, AGA? F'ing ugly man.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 02:31:41 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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