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Author Topic: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?  (Read 21908 times)

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Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #104 from previous page: December 27, 2010, 11:51:45 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602146
There was a non-Sega demo out there.  Just to prove that it *could* be done.


If this is the demo you are talking about, I can only assume that you've never actually played Sonic.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2010, 12:10:25 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602148
If this is the demo you are talking about, I can only assume that you've never actually played Sonic.


possibly.  Anything done on megadrive *could* be done on an A1200 and probably better.  Its a licensing limitation, not a hardware one.  

BtW Sonic is simply boring.
 

Offline Kesa

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2010, 12:11:47 PM »
I'm really surprised on how popular this thread is. It's been posted on really quick. I can hardly keep up with all the replies
Even my cat doesn\'t like me.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2010, 12:48:47 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602152
possibly.  Anything done on megadrive *could* be done on an A1200 and probably better.  Its a licensing limitation, not a hardware one.

No, there are a lot of things the Mega Drive can do which a stock 1200 can't, and that goes the other way around, too, of course. I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, but for 2D action games like Sonic or any shoot'em up; lot's of sprites, fast and smooth scrolling tile layers, etc, the Mega Drive is definitely superior. For games requiring a lot of RAM for variables or raw CPU power, like detailed simulations or strategy games, the 1200 is obviously the better choice, but you'd never see a Thunder Force IV or a Sonic 2 on the 1200.

Quote from: stefcep2;602152
BtW Sonic is simply boring.

Totally besides the point, but not a surprising thing to hear from someone who knows that he's losing an argument.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2010, 01:20:09 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602157
No, there are a lot of things the Mega Drive can do which a stock 1200 can't, and that goes the other way around, too, of course. I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, but for 2D action games like Sonic or any shoot'em up; lot's of sprites, fast and smooth scrolling tile layers, etc, the Mega Drive is definitely superior.


What?

Super Stardust.  Xenon.  XP8 AGA.  Project X.  Smooth scrolling, plenty-of-sprites-on-screen shooters.

The reason why a Sonic game might be smoother on the megadrive is the same reason the amiga suffered ports that were worse than on the megadrive:  the coders didn't give enough of a shit to code them properly for the Amiga, whereas a company like Sega whose mascot was Sonic would have pulled out all stops to make Sonic a flagship title: their survival depended on it.  Megadrive ports were farmed off to third parties that didn't optimize the games for Amiga.

Quote

For games requiring a lot of RAM for variables or raw CPU power, like detailed simulations or strategy games, the 1200 is obviously the better choice, but you'd never see a Thunder Force IV or a Sonic 2 on the 1200.
.

What?  It was all the stuff Amiga custom chips did with very little CPU power that set the Amiga apart.

And you'll never see Super Mario Bros on the megadrive, either.

Quote

Totally besides the point, but not a surprising thing to hear from someone who knows that he's losing an argument.


You implied that Sonic's absence on the Amiga due to AGA's technical inferiority was a  contributor to AGA's failure. I can honestly say I don't recall anyone saying:  "If Amiga only had Sonic..."  Doom, yes.  Mario, maybe.  Sonic, meh...It was a boring game
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2010, 01:43:40 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602128
In general-and the people here are an exception, we'd have to be to still be even thinking about Amiga- Amiga users were the biggest tightwads.  Yes Commodore made horrendous business decisions, but whereas PC users plonked $3,000 on a 486 PC to play Doom, Amiga user complained about the price of a hard drive!
You bring up lots of good points, but I can't help but wonder, had Commodore included HD's as standard equipment in their lower end machines (no option), how the general public would have received them. You talk about how developers always have the least common denominator in mind, well, had HD's been standard, imagine how the platform would have benefited. I still think there was too big a price gap between models though and Commodore were their own worst enemy that way as they molded their client base to be "cheapies" as such. I do remember the $3k-$4k price tags on some of these big box models though. Pretty funny when you think about Commodore's leasing program. :lol:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 02:39:28 PM by save2600 »
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #110 on: December 27, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602160
What?

Super Stardust.  Xenon.  XP8 AGA.  Project X.  Smooth scrolling, plenty-of-sprites-on-screen shooters.

I won't say much about these games in terms of gameplay, but graphically they don't compare to Thunderforce IV, no, and sound-wise... The Mega Drive is miles ahead when it comes to game background music. With only four channels of sampled sound, while it might be the more desirable setup for many for just music production, the sound effects interrupting the music is so glaringly obvious.

Quote from: stefcep2;602160
The reason why a Sonic game might be smoother on the megadrive is the same reason the amiga suffered ports that were worse than on the megadrive:  the coders didn't give enough of a shit to code them properly for the Amiga, whereas a company like Sega whose mascot was Sonic would have pulled out all stops to make Sonic a flagship title: their survival depended on it.  Megadrive ports were farmed off to third parties that didn't optimize the games for Amiga.

There are no Amiga ports of Sonic 2 to compare, but right off the bat I can say that Sonic 2 wouldn't be possible on a stock Amiga 1200 because of its 10 channel crystal clear stereo sound, for example. Some will argue that 4 sample channels sound better (and I disagree) but from a technical point of view, no, the Amiga couldn't handle 10 channels of sound at that fidelity while trying to do what's happening on-screen in Sonic 2. I hate to speak in terms of number of audio channels and number of colors, but there you have it; not possible.

And no, I don't think the programmers were lazy, but they were crippled by the fact that to display more than 8 sprites, all with a single palette, they had to muck about a lot with the copper, and to have parallax scrolling background planes, they had to use a lot of tricks (hogging a lot of CPU), ending up with inflexible results in all practical cases. Getting 80 sprites on screen on a multi-layer multi-directional scrolling background on the Mega Drive is a breeze compared to the Amiga, meaning that developers could focus more on game logic than on getting stuff on the screen through seemingly magic tricks.

Quote from: stefcep2;602160
What?  It was all the stuff Amiga custom chips did with very little CPU power that set the Amiga apart.

That wasn't at all unique for home computers at the time (and it was something game consoles had already been doing for quite some time). What set set the Amiga apart IMO was that it was able to compete with and even surpass game console/arcade hardware at the time of its release, while still being a usable personal computer. By the release of AGA, this edge was long lost, and AGA itself did very little to take it back.

Quote from: stefcep2;602160

And you'll never see Super Mario Bros on the megadrive, either.

While it's besides the point again, it's funny that you should mention it.


Quote from: stefcep2;602160
You implied that Sonic's absence on the Amiga due to AGA's technical inferiority was a  contributor to AGA's failure.

I didn't say anything about technical inferiority. I said that a game like Sonic 2 isn't possible on a stock Amiga 1200 as a reply to runequester's list of fallacious "You can't do X on Y" arguments, which doesn't mean to say that I think that the Amiga is inferor. There are things that can be done on the Amiga that the Mega Drive could only dream of. It was an odd move for Commodore, though, not to add features similar or even comparable to those of contemporary game consoles like the MD or the SNES, since most of their user base obviously wanted a machine to play games on.

Quote from: stefcep2;602160
I can honestly say I don't recall anyone saying:  "If Amiga only had Sonic..."  Doom, yes.  Mario, maybe.  Sonic, meh...It was a boring game

Your anecdotal recollection of the past doesn't mean anything in this discussion, and neither does your opinion of Sonic 2. The fact remains that Mega Drives/Genesis systems are still being produced, and Sonic 2 is almost always near the top in "all time best" charts along with Doom and some Mario games.
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #111 on: December 27, 2010, 02:48:20 PM »
IF only the Amiga had "blast processing" to go along with AGA  :lol:

Sonic does suck though. Not much of a game there at all. Let's see how fast we can blow through a level, while trying to nab as many coins as possible. Yay. Yawn.
 

Offline pwermonger

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #112 on: December 27, 2010, 03:15:21 PM »
I dont hate AGA. I hate that management delayed it so long that it wasnt competitive anymore by the time it came out. My 4000 is still my favorite Amiga alongside the 1000. I just wish the 4000 had come out instead of the 3000 which barely had any advantages in chipset over the 2500. The 3000+ would have been a much better machine to have out at that time to keep Amiga on top in capabilities.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #113 on: December 27, 2010, 03:15:45 PM »
Quote from: save2600;602165
IF only the Amiga had "blast processing" to go along with AGA  :lol:

Sonic does suck though. Not much of a game there at all. Let's see how fast we can blow through a level, while trying to nab as many coins as possible. Yay. Yawn.


Surely, you can come up with some better excuse to evade my actual point. Whether it sucks or not, I'm talking about Sonic not as a game, but as a technical display of things that stock 1200's can't do.

In my personal opinion, Sonic 2 is better than any game on the Amiga except maybe some of the Lucasfilm adventures. Not that it matters in this discussion, which, since the beginning, has been about technicalities. If it was about the general quality of games, we wouldn't even have a discussion; SNES, Mega Drive, TG-16, maybe even MSX would win hands down.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2010, 03:16:12 PM »
Games like Kid Chaos and some of the stuff in Mr. Nutz (for 2 examples) show quite clearly that an aga machine would be capable of Sonic, especially being that theyre only ocs/ecs games and have similar speed scrolling with lots of parallax (more than sonic).
While conversions where often better for the megadrive, when the amiga was used properly it's a superior experience in my opinion. Movement is usually somewhat slicker in a well coded amiga game and sound is superior (you cant just judge sound on the number of audio channels, in nearly every other department the amigas sound wins hands down when compared to megadrive). Sword of Sodan was infinately better on the amiga for example,.. sprites had to be shrunk for the megadrive version due to technical restrictions,..... just one example of a decently made amiga game. As for being "crippled" by the amigas hardware, it's hardware is what it's hardware is. To get the best results out of it you have to program specifically for it, buch like any machine. Would you begrudge a megadrive game developer for using its sprites and other custom hardware ?  It's hardly crippling and inflexible either,... the very nature of the amigas custom hardware makes it flexible and no-one can really say what it can and cant do due to that flexibility.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 03:29:55 PM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #115 on: December 27, 2010, 03:28:27 PM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;602170
(you cant just judge sound on the number of audio channels, in nearly every other department the amigas sound wins hands down when compared to megadrive).
I'm off for a long train ride in a few minutes, but I have some time to reply to this. In terms of musical ability on a system as limited in memory as a stock 1200, polyphony makes all the difference. The Megadrive sound is mostly synthesized by a couple of sound chips, and in no memory at all you can have a full and beautiful musical arrangement. The difference it makes musically should be evident from the difference in music quality between for example Sonic 2 and Kid Chaos, the latter being really horrible.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 05:49:58 PM by Linde »
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #116 on: December 27, 2010, 03:34:03 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602169
Surely, you can come up with some better excuse to evade my actual point.
Nah, I wasn't trying to make an argument either way. Truth is, when it comes to arcade-type games, I've not seen too many examples where classic computer gaming outshines their console counterparts. Rarely, if ever happens. No need to go into all the 'why', 'if', 'ands' and 'buts', but I suspect it's a combination of what's already been spoken about: lazy programmers, bad ports and the fact that the hardware *is* different from consoles. Having your entire program dumped to ROM on a cartridge has its obvious advantages too. As far as Sonic having 10 channels of sound - whoopee. The sound out of a Genesis/Megadrive is heavily distorted and offends anyway. There's no denying though that being forced to choose either sound effects or music, is lame. I like what someone said a while back about Paula needing another channel or two. Would have been nice!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 03:55:30 PM by save2600 »
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2010, 05:46:20 PM »
Internet on board!

Quote from: save2600;602175
As far as Sonic having 10 channels of sound - whoopee. The sound out of a Genesis/Megadrive is heavily distorted and offends anyway. There's no denying though that being forced to choose either sound effects or music, is lame. I like what someone said a while back about Paula needing another channel or two. Would have been nice!

Yes, a few more channels on the Paula would have done it good, or a secondary soundchip, even just a simple PSG for sound effects.

As for the Mega Drive sound being heavily distorted, I think that this was a problem on some model 2 mega drives (as in dynamic distortion), but on the models that don't have this bug, the sound is excellent, and similar sound chips were used in professional grade Yamaha synthesizers like the FB-01 and the TX81z. While the Paula is definitely better at reproducing recorded sound (which I argue isn't priority #1 in action games), I'd argue that the YM2612 is more musically dynamic in a low-RAM setup like the A1200 or the Mega Drive. Amiga music often sounds stale and empty in comparison. I suggest you listen to this, which was produced for and recorded from a Mega Drive, before you make any assumptions about its sound capabilities.
 

Offline motorollin

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2010, 05:58:14 PM »
Quote from: Kesa;602153
I'm really surprised on how popular this thread is. It's been posted on really quick. I can hardly keep up with all the replies


Ditto... This thread reminds me why this site is so much effort :lol:

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Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2010, 06:43:58 PM »
Quote from: Linde;602192
I suggest you listen to this, which was produced for and recorded from a Mega Drive, before you make any assumptions about its sound capabilities.


I'll have to give that a listen when I get home. Using a crippled PC at work here  :(

BTW: I've owned several Model 1's, Model 2's and Model 3's throughout the years and am intimately familiar with how all of Sega's consoles sound. Currently have a model 2, 32X and CD unit (fugly combo if ever there was one). You're right about the 2 and 3 system though. Awful sound compared to the original! Video even took a slight dive too  :(

Same with SID on the C64. C64c's SID sounds 'different' and to these ears, not always in the most flattering way.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 06:46:37 PM by save2600 »