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Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #89 from previous page: December 27, 2010, 03:46:00 AM »
Yikes. Digiman is letting rip :)
 
I fundamentally agree with you man. I just prefer looking at what was cool about it
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #90 on: December 27, 2010, 04:08:50 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602078
The A500 was hard to upgrade because thats not what it was designed for!  You were meant to use it, and when it could no longer keep up with the modern software you meant to get an A1200.  If you chose not to do that, AND still wanted to rum modern software, then you had to accept it was going to be awkward and expensive.  Instead people just went:"How do i get an AGA upgrade for my A500?"  Buy an A1200, thats how!



It was too late because not enough bothered to ditch their A500 and get an A1200, choose the hard drive option AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE and get a RAM upgrade later on.  The users killed the potential that AGA had as much as Commodore did.  Commodore was a  victim of its own success, the A500 was so far ahead of its time, people expected it to be start of the art for ever!



Most A1200's I've seen had a 40 mb hard drive.  The Commodore card box they came in had tick box for  models with hard drive and those without, some with 60 meg, so they definately were available with hard drive from Commodore.  

You didn't NEED that box, but I bet you chose to do it that way beacsue a big 3.5 inch HD was cheaper and faster-but the A1200 was never meant for big 3.5 inch drives, it was a compact all-in-one home computer, not a pro machine, thats what the A4000 was for, but A1200 users wanted pro-level machines for game console prices.  this is exactly how Apple markets is computers today: hard to expand iMacs for home users with lower specs, Mac pro for everyone else.  But Mac users are different; they accept that, Amiga users didn't.

I did the external tower thing as well, but that was to get a CDROM drive going, and Commodore was dead by the time CDROM was essential.  CDROM at the time of Commodore was bloody expensive, so if people were too tight to ditch the A500, why would Commodore push CDROM?


AGA had very little potential, and even if it could games companies were not going to make 7 disk versions of games that had to fit all the extra higher quality sound and graphics onto the same stupid 880kb disk format. ALL PCs had 1.44mb HD drives by the time of A600 let alone A1200.

Secondly it's all fine saying there were hard drives for Amiga but most high street chains refused to stock them as they said they were too expensive (and they were too expensive because they were laptop technology....laptops cost £1000-1500+ in 1991/2). Plenty of companies shoe-horned 3.5" drives INSIDE the A1200 case too so it's bad decision from Medhi Ali Inc (tm)

What was never considered was selling people a slow 14mhz 020 and then selling it with only 2mb chip ram from high streets crippling it to barely double the speed of the A500! Why the hell was there no SIMM slots OR the base machine split between 1mb chip and 1mb fast ram IF the only option was to sell a machine that is crippled to 50% processing power until YOU buy an extra circuit board and YOU install it yourself. Look what happened...software houses ALL wrote games based on performance of 2mb chip only A1200! RAM WAS REQUIRED AS AN OFF THE SHELF OPTION TO GAIN TWICE THE SPEED SO SOFTWARE HOUSES WROTE GAMES FOR THAT PERFORMANCE LEVEL. HD is useless for all but those crap boring click based adventures that come on 12 disks!

The reality is in 1987 A500 was just about still king with only TG-16 console from NEC being superior for some games (like ALL Sega arcade conversions) and the unpopular Acorn Archimedes (CPU as fast as a 25mhz 030/256 colours/16 channel sound all in 1987 and costing just £800!) and in 1985 the A1000 was superior to every machine regardless of price. A500Plus was superior only to low end 8086PC and Atari ST but NOT Sega Genesis/Megadrive. And A600 was a joke we should forget as far as game sophistication goes (everyone gave up and got a Sega/Nintendo console now for sure) and then A1200 was too little too late to slam dunk any console on sale really. And expanding your A1200 to match a £999 25mhz 486 with 4mb RAM, 80mb HDD, and HD floppy without monitor would cost MORE! And the extra oomph would never be used and Outrun Turbo would still look like a turd even after spending £100s on your Amiga (unlike in PC land where the game improves with no modification).

Thanks to Commodore hardly ever improving games relevant aspects of the Amiga chipset and then selling turkeys like A600 to replace the A500 which could have 10mb RAM/50mhz 030/24bit graphics/faster SCSI drives/PC 286 hardware emulator all thanks to the Zorro 1 slot on side expansion.

People lost confidence with Commodore for years from the A2000 disaster to CD32 joke, you really expected people to come back and spend £400 on a machine that had no killer games? At least Amiga 1000 had Defender of the Crown and Marble Madness or The Pawn for cerebral types. A1200 had NO KILLER APP unlike all the consoles and the PCs so where was their incentive? AGA didn't give enough of an improvement for people to sit back and go "WOW" unlike when Defender of the Crown/Marble Madness was booted up on A1000 at various shows around the world :(
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2010, 04:23:48 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;602102
How many times did you buy an arcade conversion and then want your money back instantly? Exactly!


Erm... Never... :)

You need anger management methinks... either that or you just nuts... :)
 
Quote
Remember ALL games still had to fit on crappy 880kb disks thanks to Commodore not spending a few quid more on a HD drive for A1200 not just A4000!


No silly boy... the option was there for the buyer to choose between an A1200 with or without an HD, it was only greetin faced numpties like you who were obviously too miserable to pay for the HD for your new super duper gaming machine that made that choice... :rolleyes:

You don't seem to have been a happy chappy with any of your Amigas so again I ask why on earth did you buy one...

Quote
Software companies treated us like dirt and so we pirated their weak feeble efforts as befits the low quality of their programming.


again more proof that you totally bammy... why the frig would you want to pirate crap software... you make less sense than me on one of me good days... :)

Do as I'm just doing have a quick ciggie then a pee and go off to bed, you'll feel much better in the morning... night, night... :)
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #92 on: December 27, 2010, 05:41:25 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602083
@2600.  The A1200 wedge design was for portable computing on the cheap: the built in composite out meant no monitor needed, just plonk it in front of a tv, and boot up.  Even with just 2 meg and no hard drive you would probably boot up faster than a hard drive PC with Win 3!  

The real shame was that too few users saw what the A1200 could do with a hard drive and extra ram:  Word Process, Spread sheet, database, video, art, animation, music, mutitasking GUI OS, and even 3D.  Everything that an expanded A500 could do and more, for less than an A500 upgrade.

I once cursed the limitations for expansion, of an all-in-one wedge design, but I now realise what i wanted the A1200 to be what it wasn't designed to be.  Thats what the A4000 was.

The A1200 was NOT marketed as a "half assed" (which is clearly what it would have been, had they even tried) portable machine here in the States as you're projecting. It was supposed to be an evolutionary step up from the A500. And are you kidding about the A1200 and A4000? Umm.... remember the cost difference? Totally inexcusable. Even worse than the A500 and A2000. Commodore simply didn't know what they had or how to even price it. The Amiga was left to monkeys after the A1000 was designed. Pure and simple.

+10 Digiman!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 05:56:50 AM by save2600 »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #93 on: December 27, 2010, 05:42:21 AM »
Yep AGA was flawed. Difficult to program and not enough of an upgrade.
But you can't blame it for the eventual failure of the Amiga.
Perhaps the focus on he machine's gaming features is what lead the Amiga to its doom. I used to sell PC and frankly they stunk. I took years of development to get the basics that the Amiga started with.
256 color graphics? Not until VGA boards were introduced (and frankly they stunk until 2D and 3D acceleration was added).
Sound? Unless you count that built in speaker designed for error code beeps, you had to add something like a Soundblaster.

But most PCs had hard drives (a big advantage). And PC's were sold not as gaming platforms, but as productivity platforms. Good wordprocessors, spreadsheets, accounting software and other business packages made PCs useful tools for business.

Amiga marketing just wasn't focused on utility. And the machines with the expansion capabilities that looked like serious computers (ie the A4000) were way too overpriced.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #94 on: December 27, 2010, 06:22:26 AM »
A1200+

28 MHz 020
1 MB Chip RAM
1 MB Fast RAM
30 pin SIMM Sockets on mobo
High Density internal floppy drive
AGA graphics
8 channel sound

£499/$750

That spec and price isn't too shabby and quite a realistic proposal for a 1992 launch.

Would it have been enough to save the ship?
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Offline nicholas

Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2010, 06:24:43 AM »
A1200+

28 MHz 020
1 MB Chip RAM
1 MB Fast RAM
30 pin SIMM Sockets on mobo
High Density internal floppy drive
AGA graphics
8 channel sound

£499/$750

That spec and price isn't too shabby and quite a realistic proposal for a 1992 launch.

Would it have been enough to save the ship?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #96 on: December 27, 2010, 06:40:22 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;602122
A1200+

30 MHz 030
1 MB Chip RAM
2 MB Fast RAM
30 pin SIMM Sockets on mobo
High Density internal floppy drive
AGA graphics w/ enhanced blitter/copper and true Amber 31khz VGA monitor compatibility with the stupid VGA adapter included or better yet, with the standard S-VGA output built-in
8 channel DSP sound at 16-bit equiv and Roland MIDI compatibility

£499/$750

That spec and price isn't too shabby and quite a realistic proposal for a 1992 launch.

Would it have been enough to save the ship?


Fixed those specs for you, but still... would have failed. A slower death maybe. But failure personified thanks to C= not evolving with consumer demand, trending and good old common sense.

I still think it's pure mental retardation that Tramiel became Atari's owner and C= was left in the hands of misc. generic failed computing execs. What a crock computing history has turned out to be. Even then, we all knew it was bad news. But it was allowed to happen. Once again: irresponsible capitalism and corporate politics ruined yet another couple of great "entities" that had more of an impact on computing in their demise, than when they were "alive".
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:03:58 AM by save2600 »
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #97 on: December 27, 2010, 07:56:24 AM »
Quote from: save2600;602118
The A1200 was NOT marketed as a "half assed" (which is clearly what it would have been, had they even tried) portable machine here in the States as you're projecting.

I'm not saying it was marketed as a portable machine ala a "laptop", but it nevertheless was easily portable, and as TV screens were ubiquitous, it was a very portable computer.  Its market was the home user/game player not the power user who wanted to start a branch of Industrial Light and Magic in their bedroom.  The problem here is that this user wasn't you or me or everyone else still mad enough to be on a forum like this all these years later.  We were fanatics, who wanted the power of an A4000 at the price of an A1200.  And the reason it came out with 2 meg chip was that RAM was very expensive at the time of the A1200's release and Commodore wanted to encourage third party hardware development of RAM boards and accelerators.  

Quote
It was supposed to be an evolutionary step up from the A500. And are you kidding about the A1200 and A4000? Umm.... remember the cost difference? Totally inexcusable. Even worse than the A500 and A2000. Commodore simply didn't know what they had or how to even price it. The Amiga was left to monkeys after the A1000 was designed. Pure and simple.

+10 Digiman!

Well how does the price compare say when Apple turned things around for themselves with their fruity iMac (even less expandable than an A1200) and the Tower Power Macs?  AFIR $1800 versus $3500 (sans monitor). The difference is the market perception:  Apple users who bought the iMac knew what they were getting and didn't ask for more. They weren't tinkerers, applying patches and hacks to get that last drhystone out of the machine.

From my reading there are differences in markets between countries as well:  The UK were mostly low-end users, the US pro-video users, and Germany probably a mix. It tends to explain people from the UK saying they couldn't get hard drive machines easily: was that due to Commodore not wanting to sell HD A1200's or people not wanting or not being able to afford to, and then being given what they want/can afford?  Here in Australia, every A1200 I ever saw on sale when people were getting out of Amiga had at least a 40 mb hard drive, many had RAM cards.

 Many of the relatively few Amiga users who upgraded to an A1200 knew that they wanted the capabilities of an A4000....and bought an A1200. The rest stayed on their A500's, so that remained the base for games programmers even after AGA had been out for years.  If more people upgraded to AGA, then that would have been the base, and with software ever pushing the limits if hardware and with economies of scale, later 68030's and even 68060's could have been affordable enough to make games like doom and ridge racer feasable, until AAA came out.  

In general-and the people here are an exception, we'd have to be to still be even thinking about Amiga- Amiga users were the biggest tightwads.  Yes Commodore made horrendous business decisions, but whereas PC users plonked $3,000 on a 486 PC to play Doom, Amiga user complained about the price of a hard drive!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:58:47 AM by stefcep2 »
 

Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2010, 08:21:48 AM »
Its worth pointing out that there were more to computers than arcade games.

Nobody made PD games for the NES (ROM hacks I guess)

You couldn't play Civilization or Battle Isle on the master system.

Not a lot of people used their super nintendo for animation.

I never got the hang of writing a high school paper on the playstation.
 

Offline motorollin

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #99 on: December 27, 2010, 08:56:12 AM »
@thread
Group hug! ;)
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2010, 09:02:50 AM »
Interesting topic, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents...  :)

Well, 1stly I think AGA suffered from 2 things. Firstly, it's base model ('020, no fast 2meg chip), was a little crippling. To take advantage of the improvements in aga it really needs cpu to be using fast ram. Not just for the added raw cpu grunt, but so aga itself isnt as crippled. A 68000 + ocs/ecs can get away with living on chip ram, an aga machine not so much.
Secondly Im not sure AGA really got much of a chance to show what it's capable of. Most of the more impressive amiga games are written specifically for the machine and with it's strengths in mind. By the time AGA was around and the "base" aga systems where typically good enough to let aga spread its wings the obsession for amiga coders was "doom on the amiga", and very few AGA games where written to its strengths.

If a 1 meg 68000 ocs/ecs machine can do things like Elfmania, Lionheart, Ruff n Tumble, etc. surely an aga machine with even a 68020 and a few meg fast ram could be capable of something beyond the snes/megadrive. It's a shame we'll probably never know for sure.

All this aside though, while Ive predominately used RTG based systems for a number of years now, aga, and the limitations it imposes I get a kick out of.Seeing how nice looking a Workbench I can make while using limited color depth and so on, while still having it fast enough, and functional. For practical use I much prefer using RTG, but AGA has it's own charms  :)
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2010, 09:53:37 AM »
Having got rid of all my various franken towers over the years, all I want now is an A1200 wedge with some fast ram, network and buffered IDE hard drive, so i can push the hardware to see what i can get out of it.

I don't even need an SD/FF as an LCD TV will see to that problem.
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Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2010, 11:30:38 AM »
Quote from: runequester;602131
Its worth pointing out that there were more to computers than arcade games.

Nobody made PD games for the NES (ROM hacks I guess)

You couldn't play Civilization or Battle Isle on the master system.

Not a lot of people used their super nintendo for animation.

I never got the hang of writing a high school paper on the playstation.

I don't think comparing it to the NES, Playstation, SNES or Master system is fair. They were all "closed" and locked-out systems. It's much better to compare it with other video game/computer hybrids like the X68000 or FM-Towns series, both of which blow the Amiga away in terms of graphic and sound ability, without weird solutions like the copper, and still manage in the home computer department -- arguably not as good as the Amiga in that regard, but not far off, and definitely capable enough.

People wanting a good gaming experience were probably in majority of the Amiga market, and the sound and graphics were the unique selling point of the damn thing; there's no denying that Commodore overlooked that when they released AGA and lost the little edge they still had. If all you wanted to do was to play PD games, Civ and write school papers by 1992, you should have picked up a PC.

BTW, there are quite a few PD games for the NES (no, not only ROM hacks), and you can play Civ on a Super NES. Can you play anything like Sonic 2 on a stock A1200? :) Apples and oranges, IMO.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2010, 11:46:06 AM »
Quote from: Linde;602145
. Can you play anything like Sonic 2 on a stock A1200? :) Apples and oranges, IMO.


There was a non-Sega demo out there.  Just to prove that it *could* be done.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't hate AGA?
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2010, 11:51:45 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602146
There was a non-Sega demo out there.  Just to prove that it *could* be done.


If this is the demo you are talking about, I can only assume that you've never actually played Sonic.