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Author Topic: Amiga Coldfire project dead?  (Read 31145 times)

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Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #104 from previous page: November 18, 2010, 04:47:42 PM »
Quote from: Tension;592830
What is amazing is that a 500Mhz PC from 6 years ago can run youtube fine, but a G4 mac mini chokes to death on youtube.

Well it's no secret that windoze flash is better accelerated.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2010, 04:54:11 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;592803
Amen to that, was such a waste. Just being able to write to the chip ram by itself would have made it so much more useful. After all, if you are doing software texture-mapped 3D type stuff, you are going to want to have your accumulation buffer in fast ram. You might just get away with reading that to a set of registers once per frame. However, the amount of shuffling you actually had to do with akiko rendered it all but pointless.


I think the point of Akiko was for reading bitmaps from disk to facilitate ports.
For instance, Doesn't Wing Commander contain PC graphics?
So now when you load a bitmap, you push it thru Akiko, now its in Amiga planar format and now you do whatever you want with it.  There is no point in keeping it in chunky format and constantly converting it in real time.

I don't think it was meant for any realtime use.

So let me be clear:
A game typically has most of it's graphics in RAM.
The graphics are on disk in chunky format initially.
The game initialized it's 'level' and begins loading all the images it needs.
Each image it read and processed to planar and stored in RAM.
Now your game engine has all the planar graphics it needs to run, start the level.

So, no, Wing Commander was not doing C2P on the fly to my knowledge but only when intializing a level.
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2010, 05:18:50 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;592836
I think the point of Akiko was for reading bitmaps from disk to facilitate ports.


That makes no sense either though. Why put a format on the CD that you need to convert when loading? It takes longer to load and you can't control / customise the bitmaps for the platform.

Typically if you need to convert a format you do that offline, check it to see if it's good enough, and re-author the asset specifically for the target platform if it isn't good enough.

Since it was Wing Commander that'd be a one off quality control pass for a single artist and a batch file.

No the more I read about Akiko it sounds more and more like it was an idea that someone just managed to wedge into some spare space. Perhaps it was meant to be something more but got pulled back into an almost pointless feature. Happens all the time.

Andy
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Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2010, 05:45:38 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;592836
I think the point of Akiko was for reading bitmaps from disk to facilitate ports.

Rendering dynamic graphics in planar is way too slow, especially if you need to do transparency. Also, blitter is really slow in 256 color mode. Such rendering is done in chunky mode and then the framebuffer is converted to planar with c2p conversion graphics.library/WriteChunkyPixels. This function was added specifically to AmigaOS 3.1 and uses Akiko chip when available. With Akiko the otherwise underpowered CD32 was able to have games that would have been otherwise impossible.
 

Offline tone007

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2010, 06:06:58 PM »
Quote from: Franko;592806
Wow never knew you could do such things on a computer,  aren't these new fangled computers amazing... :)


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Offline Tension

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2010, 06:15:46 PM »
Quote from: Piru;592848
With Akiko the otherwise underpowered CD32 was able to have games that would have been otherwise impossible.


[citation needed]

Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2010, 06:28:31 PM »
Quote from: Tension;592852
[citation needed]


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Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2010, 06:43:48 PM »
Quote from: Tension;592852
[citation needed]

I doubt Microcosm would be possible without Akiko.
 

Offline Zac67

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2010, 06:50:52 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;592854
If the word of Harry Sintonen isn't good enough for you I don't know whose is!

Seconded. :cool:

Akikio is nothing but a few mixing registers. You write 32 chunky pixels to the registers and read back / copy to ChipRAM 8 words of planar data (32 bit).

Working with planar graphics directly is - as Piru stated - much slower. In 3D you can't just move/copy bitmaps but you render each pixel individually. Obviously the read-modify-write back for planar (several words!) takes much longer than just writing one chunky byte.

With a fast CPU and FastRAM (and caches!) you can rather quickly convert your chunky buffer to planar but the CD32 has neither, so the 'we have a few spare gates on Akiko, why don't we use them to speed up graphics somehow' approach suggested itself.
 

Offline Daedalus

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2010, 07:00:23 PM »
Quote from: Piru;592834
Well it's no secret that windoze flash is better accelerated.


That's it, and newer versions of Flash have ended up even slower on PPC Macs. And the sad thing is, the actual video itself would be perfectly playable most of the time on either PPC Mac or 500MHz PC if it weren't for the Flash overheads.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2010, 07:21:43 PM »
Quote from: Daedalus;592860
That's it, and newer versions of Flash have ended up even slower on PPC Macs. And the sad thing is, the actual video itself would be perfectly playable most of the time on either PPC Mac or 500MHz PC if it weren't for the Flash overheads.


Flash overhead does not appear to be the problem. OSX overhead would appear to be the problem.
When I try to view a Flash file under OSX on my 933Mhz Powermac its dead slow. The same file when viewed with Mplayer under MorphOS works fine.
The only problem using MorphOS to view Flash files is the the primary browser (OWB) has very poor Flash support and the author (Fab) has stated he doesn't intend to improve it (prefering to focus on html5).
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Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2010, 07:24:27 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;592861
Flash overhead does not appear to be the problem. OSX overhead would appear to be the problem.
When I try to view a Flash file under OSX on my 933Mhz Powermac its dead slow. The same file when viewed with Mplayer under MorphOS works fine.
The only problem using MorphOS to view Flash files is the the primary browser (OWB) has very poor Flash support and the author (Fab) has stated he doesn't intend to improve it (prefering to focus on html5).

Have you tried the Flashplayer "Square" Beta?  It's much better on an intel mac than the older versions, I assume the same would be true for PPC Macs.

http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/flashplayer10/flashplayer_square_p2_32bit_mac_092710.dmg
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Offline ppascal

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2010, 07:39:22 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;592861
Flash overhead does not appear to be the problem. OSX overhead would appear to be the problem.
When I try to view a Flash file under OSX on my 933Mhz Powermac its dead slow. The same file when viewed with Mplayer under MorphOS works fine.
The only problem using MorphOS to view Flash files is the the primary browser (OWB) has very poor Flash support and the author (Fab) has stated he doesn't intend to improve it (prefering to focus on html5).


Stop bashing OS X, please read:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/14/chronicles-of-conflict-the-history-of-adobe-vs-apple/

It's not Jobs fault that Adobe laughed at his PPC/OSX, when Apple struggled to get back to mainstream with this new platform.

And, maybe play the same file with Mplayer under OS X. Ever tried?

As much as I am Amiga/68k fanboy, can't stand bashing mac os x without reason :-).


Regards, ppascal
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2010, 07:42:07 PM »
Thanks Nicholas, even though I don't use OSX that often I'll look into.

BTW - The Black Book you're referencing is pretty cool.
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Offline Daedalus

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2010, 07:47:18 PM »
@Iggy

Well, the reason I suspect Flash is that I can play and edit full PAL video at 720x576 on my G4 Mac in a variety of formats without it breaking a sweat, yet it struggles to play a 360p Youtube clip. The same clip in any other format would surely play easily as well as e.g. ripped DVDs, Divx etc.

Bottom line is that the G4@1.33GHz has plenty of horsepower to decode video in any format other than Flash, so I have to conclude that Flash is the issue. It's well known that for a long time Flash was hobbled on the Apple because of restrictions imposed by Apple themselves regarding acceleration, and only the extra power of the G5 and Core 2 chips made it usable.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2010, 07:58:40 PM »
Quote from: ppascal;592864
Stop bashing OS X, please read:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/14/chronicles-of-conflict-the-history-of-adobe-vs-apple/

It's not Jobs fault that Adobe laughed at his PPC/OSX, when Apple struggled to get back to mainstream with this new platform.

And, maybe play the same file with Mplayer under OS X. Ever tried?

As much as I am Amiga/68k fanboy, can't stand bashing mac os x without reason :-).


Regards, ppascal

Sorry ppascal,
That article is written in a most annoying style (let there be light - and then there was Apple - and it was good).
Its also clearly biased toward Apple (and I am NOT an Apple fan).
Jobs has always been a control freak (whether its his IP or not to control).
And Apple is not alone in this regard, Microsoft is just as guilty of trying to control all aspects of its OS (what work or doesn't - what is compatible or isn't).

Not that I don't favor a more open solution (like html5), but what we're seeing isn't as much Apple bashing as it is Adobe bashing.

We'd both admit that it should be possible to view Flash files on a PPC system, but I'm not sure that that failure rests soley at Adobe's feet.

@ Daedalus
That is close to how I'd view the problem (Apple limiting acceleration). But why do other video formats (still w/o acceleration) work?
I know people that are viewing 720p video files on G4s running MorphOS. So why is Flash a problem and why is it only some programs that can display Flash (not all of them)?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:03:36 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"