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Author Topic: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned  (Read 47510 times)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #104 from previous page: March 11, 2011, 02:12:38 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;621028
Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
Cloanto managed to stop A Inc sitting on the Kickstart ROM an letting them rot in some lawyers IP filing cabinet... They want free ROMs as much as you do... More so in fact as they have contributed to this bounty :)

Offline Khephren

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2011, 02:29:15 PM »
Is there anywhere I can go and read about what capabilities this will bring to our old girls?
Want to see if this will really bring less dither to my workbench...

And poor old Cloanto get a bad rep by associating with evil. A bit like Bobba fett. Man's just doing his job.
 

Offline Crom00

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2011, 02:52:16 PM »
You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.

That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2011, 02:57:41 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;621193
You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.

That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.


You do realize that you obviously have no idea what the words "copyright" and "infringe" mean?

Nor have you heard of clean room reverse engineering or BSD vs AT&T or SCO vs IBM. :rolleyes:

Nor the agreement between Fleecy Moss and AROS either.

As a last resort the AROS team are more than welcome to host their SVN on svn.commodoreamiga.ir anyway.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 03:03:42 PM by nicholas »
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Offline Franko

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2011, 03:04:06 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;621193
You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.

That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.

Nobody gives a toss about who claims to own what anymore, if those who claim to own the IPs/Copyright/Distribution and all that crap really cared or thought they had a leg to stand on, then all this BS would have been solved years ago...

At the end of the day there are countless sites on the web where all this stuff can be downloaded for free or a small charge and it constantly turns up on eBay no matter how many times eBay removes it... :)

I fail to understand why folk on these sites get their knickers in a twist when it's obvious whomever claims to own it doesn't give a shit otherwise there would be no sites on the web or the stuff being sold on places like eBay if they were really that bothered about it... :rolleyes:
 

Offline Khephren

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;621193
You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.

That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.


Well,they can. but A)the copyright holders are skint  B)AROS does not contain copyrighted data-that's what it's about, and why it's taken so long.
 

Offline Pentad

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2011, 03:51:39 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;621197
You do realize that you obviously have no idea what the words "copyright" and "infringe" mean?

Nor have you heard of clean room reverse engineering or BSD vs AT&T or SCO vs IBM. :rolleyes:

Nor the agreement between Fleecy Moss and AROS either.

As a last resort the AROS team are more than welcome to host their SVN on svn.commodoreamiga.ir anyway.


:rolleyes:

The irony is neither do you...  As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.

1.  'Clean Room' reverse engineering requires heavily documented procedures to prove that it truly was a clean room environment.  I would suggest you research AMD vs Intel when AMD was able to create Intel compatible CPUs.  This required two separate rooms, a whole bunch of lawyers, and was well documented by video.  Hiding in your parent's basement or closet and writing your own Kickstart or creating your i7 CPU would never hold up in court.

2.  Have any of these folks looked at a disassembly of Kickstart?  If they have, you automatically loose.  Its a term called 'tainted' and its a very good argument.  If you don't believe me, Google the Windows Source Code that was leaked awhile back and see what the Open Source people did.  They ran the other way when the code was released.

The reason?  If anybody working on an Open Source project that also looked at the Windows Source Code could be accused of applying copyrighted or patented features of Windows to their own Open Source Project.  

Still don't believe me?  What did RJ Mical do when he wrote Intuition?  He stated he locked himself in a room and wrote his own code.  He went out of his way to not look at other code nor features of another OS.  In the early 1980s, that was ok.  Would that hold up today, probably not.

3.  Copyright vs Patent.  You have many, many issues here with Kickstart.  Let me give you some examples:

Guru Mediation Error:  This is a method for displaying a serious error from the OS.  The idea behind it could not be patented (showing an error message to the user).  However, showing such a message with a black screen, a red flashing box, the error inside said box, and the words labeling the error could be copyrighted by the owner.  Also, how that error message is generated could be patented.

More to the point, imagine you arguing to a judge or jury that you just happened to write an exact copy of how this error message is displayed to a user in you clean room environment?  Not likely...

Kickstart Workbench Hand Image:  That is a picture folks and is copyrighted by somebody.  

Also, you can't patent the idea that a message is displayed asking for boot media but your code better be very different from that of the source.

Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu:  I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this.  Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...

As you can see, there are many complicated issues here so I hope my point is made.

NOTES:

I am not an attorney and I'm just giving you a broad overview of the issues that are involved.  Trust me, there are many more issues involved here.

I am not privy to what agreements have been made and to/with whom which would obviously change how the above issues are worked out

Does anyone care?  Whether or not its legal is one argument.  Whether or not anyone cares is an entirely different argument.  The Amiga isn't exactly a money making device so does it make sense to sue such a small group of people.  I do not know who owns what or if patents have been renewed to keep them from expiring.

Money.  Lets be realistic here, the legal system is truly moderated by money.  If push came to shove, would all involved have the money to fight a prolonged legal battle?  That is an issue that often decides outcomes.  

Why do you think the phrase "You never sue IBM" is still relevant today?  They will outlast you in the legal system.  I don't know who owns Kickstart (or the part there of) but do they have more money than the Kickstart Replacement folks?  I have no idea but maybe.

Lastly, I am speaking from an American Legal System.  If part of the code is owned outside of the US it would become even more complicated.

-P
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Offline mongo

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2011, 04:20:53 PM »
Quote from: Pentad;621224
:rolleyes:

The irony is neither do you...  As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.


You should educate yourself first.

1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.

2. AROS contains no AmigaOS source code. This should be obvious just by inspecting the code.

3. Writing code that does the exact same thing as copyrighted code is not illegal.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2011, 04:25:01 PM »
Quote from: Pentad;621224
:rolleyes:

The irony is neither do you...  As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.
In EU we have much less sucky law regarding reverse engineering. See Council Directive 91/250/EEC of 14 May 1991 on the legal protection of computer programs, specifically article 6


Quote
3.  Copyright vs Patent.  You have many, many issues here with Kickstart.  Let me give you some examples:

Guru Mediation Error:  This is a method for displaying a serious error from the OS.  The idea behind it could not be patented (showing an error message to the user).  However, showing such a message with a black screen, a red flashing box, the error inside said box, and the words labeling the error could be copyrighted by the owner.
I believe a guru mediation as itself doesn't qualify as an artwork, so I don't think it would be a problem. You probably would need to ditch the word "Guru Meditation" though. That could be argued to be unique enough. The rest: black background and red text with a blinking border is way too generic to qualify as an artwork. Then it's just up to writing your own code without breaching the copyright of the original.

Quote
Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu:  I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this.
If he did, the patent has expired ages ago.

Quote
Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...
What was patented as possibility to toggle multiple options in one menu session. This patent has expired by now (couple of years ago).

Quote
I am speaking from an American Legal System.  If part of the code is owned outside of the US it would become even more complicated.
I find it highly gratifying not having to abide to US law.

PS. If someone thinks I'm making this all up, I am not. We had to consider these legal issues very carefully when creating MorphOS. A lot of sabre rattling over MorphOS legality occurred but little (read: nothing) came out of it. I don't believe AROS has anything to fear from the legality stand point either.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 04:40:22 PM by Piru »
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2011, 04:46:32 PM »
@ Pentad & all the other Legal/ Copyright/ IP/ etc.. etc.. boring gits...

You may be a Uni prof teching copyright & patent law but the whole point is when it comes to the Amiga then as the years have shown its all just one big crock of shit...

If whomever out there who claims they own the legal rights to any Amiga/Commodore related stuff and had enough evidence to prove it in a court of law whether American or elsewhere in the world and if they actually cared about the whole ruddy thing then it would have all been solved a long time ago...

Yes I know there have been some court cases and believe that there are still some going on, mainly to just benefit the lawyers and other leeches, however the simple fact remains that Amiga ROM Images & Workbench disk sets can easily be found on the net and can easily be downloaded by anyone. Now if those who genuinely can prove ownership of this stuff were really bothered it seems most strange to me that they do nothing to prevent it...

Seems to me the only ones who like to keep all this BS going are those holier than thou armchair experts who post on these forums spouting their so called expert opinions on all things legal & copyright. For gawds sake give it a rest, we've heard it all over & over again and it all leads to nothing...

Do something useful for or with your Amiga (if you have one) and leave your so called expert opinions in your minds where the rest of us don't have to read this claptrap over and over again and again...

If someone out their who can genuinely prove that they own the rights to this or that when it comes to the Amiga then leave it to them to do so in a court of law and all you legal/copyright pundits post something useful and interesting or even just funny instead of going over and over the same old BS time after time after time... PLEASE... :)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2011, 04:56:20 PM »
I'm with Franko. At this point, the whole "Amiga ownership" argument-fest is just a bunch of rules-lawyering by vultures that should have been shown the door ages ago and their hangers-on in the Amiga community. It's unfortunate that this disgraceful mess can still carry legal ramifications, but as far as I'm concerned, **** 'em.
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Offline desiv

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2011, 05:05:39 PM »
Quote from: mongo;621232
You should educate yourself first.

1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.

2. AROS contains no AmigaOS source code. This should be obvious just by inspecting the code.

3. Writing code that does the exact same thing as copyrighted code is not illegal.

I appreciate Pentad's message..
It was good information.
He never said any of those patents hadn't expired.
Obviously some (all?  20 years definitely covers all the early Amiga work, 1991 and prior) are expired.
I believe his mentioning of RJ Mical's mouse click was for the purpose of explanation of the difference between patentable and not..

I didn't see any mention of AROS specifically in his message.

As as for your point number 3, illegal?  Maybe or maybe not..  IANAL..
Could you be sued (at least in the U.S.) for that?  I'm betting you could, depending on how you handled the writing of the code.

I didn't see anything "wrong" in his statement.
He wasn't saying anything specifically was or wasn't violating copyrights and patents..  He was just giving us some information on the concepts.

IMHO

desiv
p.s.  Does anyone know if there are any Amiga-related patents younger than 20 years old?  AGA stuff?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 05:09:33 PM by desiv »
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Offline dammy

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2011, 05:08:14 PM »
Quote from: Pentad;621224
:rolleyes:

The irony is neither do you...  As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.


Kickstart Workbench Hand Image:  That is a picture folks and is copyrighted by somebody.  


Agreed, that does need to be changed.  It' needs to be a claw and not a hand. ;)

Quote
Also, you can't patent the idea that a message is displayed asking for boot media but your code better be very different from that of the source.


Didn't the SCO law suit disaster settle that issue?  As long as it's not common (C&P) code, there shouldn't be much of an issue for the courts to decide on.  

Quote
Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu:  I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this.  Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...


It was by C= and it's 20 years expired years ago (2006?) which is why AROS went back to right mouse click.
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Offline dammy

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2011, 05:17:09 PM »
Quote from: mongo;621232
You should educate yourself first.

1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.


I don't think the final C= patent has expired.  Think it might be ~2013 but it might be sooner then that.  It's the last C= patent issued and that was shortly before C= went under.
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Offline mongo

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2011, 05:36:10 PM »
Quote from: dammy;621248
I don't think the final C= patent has expired.  Think it might be ~2013 but it might be sooner then that.  It's the last C= patent issued and that was shortly before C= went under.


I just took a quick look and couldn't find any that had anything to do with AmigaOS.
 

Offline Crom00

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase II) Assigned
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2011, 05:49:47 PM »
Guys I've seen copyright cases where one party accuses the other of copyright issues without any basis and wins becuase they had more money for lawyers.

So examine the situation of the Amiga almost every transfer of ownership or product release eventually winds up in court of some kind of legal contreversy.

Either this brand has a curse or these are all pieces of a greater puzzle.

It seems like whoever owns the IP DOESN'T want to release product. But make deals that are posted on the internet to keep the name current if you do a google search on the brand.

At any rate I wish them well and hope things can be worked out to release actual cool product.