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Author Topic: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86  (Read 43437 times)

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #134 from previous page: October 26, 2010, 06:52:32 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;586446
Greed > user experience.


Oh dear.

If you really think that, there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. This might be because you didn't think about it.

Good thing is, Amiwest convinced me that not everyone is like this.
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Offline Buzzfuzz

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2010, 06:58:27 PM »
Quote from: cha05e90;587007
No comment.

Humor me :roflmao:
 
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Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2010, 07:12:21 PM »
Quote from: Rogue;587260
If you really think that, there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. This might be because you didn't think about it.


My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.

Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting

Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate

The only pro's I see are due to greed.

If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?

I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
 

Offline jorkany

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2010, 07:16:01 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;587269
My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.

Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting

Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate

The only pro's I see are due to greed.

If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?

I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.


In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k. Just sayin.
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2010, 07:27:30 PM »
Being wrong 12+ years ago dosn't make you right today...
 
It makes you more wrong and pig headed.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2010, 11:12:51 PM »
Quote from: Akiko;587228
Are you suggesting the Frieden brothers have been working for free of all along


What I'm suggesting is that the Frieden brothers has gotten whatever money they receive at the end of each month from elsewhere.

Quote
how could you possibly know?


Hyperion is a microscopic game porting company that has no products, no real business, and I seriously doubt they have made any serious money at all during the last decade. And with serious money I mean enough to support a couple of full time employees (let alone some 30+ or whatever being claimed occasionally), with salaries, taxes and/or whatever social welfare fees of their country, every month, for a decade. Do the math. Two SW engineers (including taxes) requires margins from sales of at least 1,000,000-1,500,000 EUR for a decade. It's not plausible; somehow I doubt "Gorky 17 for Linux" was (and is!) *that* successful. But by all means, feel free to post a copy of their latest financial report here and prove me wrong. I'm sure it's possible to request it from somewhere. Didn't they change their corporate entity from an unlimited to a limited form some year ago after all? AFAIK, in most countries this means much more rigorous requirements for accounting, financial reports, audits, as well as making this kind of information more accessible to the public.

Quote
The figure of 130 sales seems a little pessimistic, a recent survey on Aw.net shows 275 members intending to buy the X1000


275?! Well, it's all fine and dandy then! (Just kidding of course!) ;)

No seriously, what that survey measures (as well as the beta tester inquiry), is how many people bothered to respond to a mail or to a poll. What those "surveys" *doesn't* measure, is how many people that will actually cash up UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ for the thing! Real, hard-earned money, in real life! If *only* 275 people bothered to answer to a poll (which most people in Amiga-land do just for political reasons, to make a statement, or to show some support, or numerous other "false" reasons), something that is close to effortless and completely free of charge, then I think it would actually be *optimistic* to think that as many as half of those will actually follow through in real life. It's not peanut money, and the hardware is unproven and nothing spectacular in any way. Ah well, time will tell. But the point is that they could multiply that figure many times over simply by making their OS accessible in a broad scale on mainstream HW, even so if only targeted towards mainstream *PPC* HW...
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2010, 11:18:07 PM »
Quote from: jorkany;587271
In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k. Just sayin.


...much because this was the migration path Apple used for their Mac's. But then again, Apples migration path for their Mac's didn't stop at PPC, it continued to... X86! :)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline kolla

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2010, 11:24:05 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;587321
...much because this was the migration path Apple

No, it was alot more about sticking with Motorola - Apple were the jerks that killed the PowerPC when they ruined the marked by preventing MacOS licensing to CHRP machines.

People seem to forget history around here :P
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 11:27:14 PM by kolla »
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Offline Fransexy_

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2010, 11:27:08 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;587269
My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.

Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting

Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate

The only pro's I see are due to greed.

If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?

I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.


The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't  force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2010, 11:30:23 PM »
Quote from: Fransexy_;587326
The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't  force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?


So what you're saying then is that he has no right to express his opinion.

He isn't forcing you to do anything, what he's saying is that he disagrees with your choice. This is absolutely his right. Just as much as it is absolutely your right to make that choice and disagree with his assessment.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2010, 11:39:05 PM »
Quote from: kolla;587325
No, it was alot more about sticking with Motorola


"Sticking with Motorola" could perhaps have played a part for those mainly responsible for executing the PPC route for Amiga (Phase5); they probably had good and solid relations to people over at Motorola since they were already into the 68k business. That, in combination with Apples chosen route, probably made PPC look like the natural path for Amiga as well. After all, there was a solid road map for the PPC desktop CPU's, and the future looked bright. This is probably also why "In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k". But then again, as some MorphOS developer has said in a forum post, and as bPlan has said by their actions (and both of them being related to former Phase5): "If we had known back then, what we know today about PPC, we would have chosen differently".
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline murple

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2010, 11:42:42 PM »
Quote from: skurk;586451
The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.


Bad news dude. Amiga went bye-bye 15 years ago.
 

Offline tone007

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2010, 11:48:39 PM »
Poppycock!
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Offline zylesea

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #147 on: October 27, 2010, 12:06:10 AM »
Quote from: paolone;587164
A 2,8 GHz 64-bit quad-core CPU like the Phenom II X4 630 from AMD costs (here in Italy, for the END USER) less than 80 euros! Which should mean little more than 100 dollars. How much does ANY hi-performance (with hi-end meaning up to 2 GHz) multicore PPC processor cost? And how much will cost the motherboards to support them?


Trevor said in some interview the PA6T  (aka "mystery processor") was 500 US$ alone.
But there are also ppcs that have prices that aren't that dramatically nuts. Unfortunately these chips are rather rarely fit into the desktop computing domain. These are mostly low end chips like 512x or chips that include things not needed for desktop computing and hence are expensive (PowerQUICC and QorIQ) or high end chips that are out of question again (the big ones by ibm) or those that aren't available on the free market (like the XBOX 360 cpu).
What's left is some models with a fairly just-not-totally-insane pricetag like the 86x0 or some QorIQs. But they cannot compete against x86 on the desktop market. And it is highly debateable to use ppc longer than reqired for desktop computing. Freescale's going to push it now a bit again and I think they have a remote chance (probably the very last chance for ppc in a broader market).
We'll see in about two years time whether they are successful or failed epicly (again).
For MorphOS I think in two years time it will be highnoon: More or less all ppc Macs supported by then. So either
a) stop it then at all,
b) move to other ISA or
c) (most unlikely) use new ppc gear based on QorIQ Altivec.
From current POV i'd suggest b), but am still dreaming a bit about c) and am fearing a).
But today MorphOS is fun as it is.

Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #148 on: October 27, 2010, 01:01:24 AM »
Quote from: Fransexy_;587326
The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't  force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?


I've got zero problems with any user doing anything they want.

I do have issues when the people who officially are in control of the future of the platform are making decisions that make no sense from most points of view.

I do use Aros, but I'd like an official AmigaOS with some future.

The Aros devs have to work many times as hard as Hyperion would in order to accomplish the same result without source code.  This is a waste of their talents and a drain on the community we have left.

If I didn't care about the platform, I wouldn't complain so much.
 

Offline actung_bab

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #149 on: October 27, 2010, 01:40:17 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;587269
My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.

Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting

Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate

The only pro's I see are due to greed.

If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?

I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
actaully l think you have to look esle where you talking greed and starts with A and ends in inc

what l have read in the past in the orginal contract hpyerion where forbiden from porting
to x86 l would thought this still applys as from what understand they have the owership
of what they ported only .
remember they where given the task by amiga inc to port it they made the ppc descion
ad then they thought later oh are amiga anywhere tke f where intrested in orginal amiga os at all untill there plans never worked out.
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