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Author Topic: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86  (Read 43449 times)

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Offline Everblue

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2010, 06:48:03 AM »
First of all, I wished I could get my hands on an Amiga OS4.1 machine but for the following reasons I went for Morphos instead:

1. I got a Powermac G4 for free (these can be found for cheap anyway)
2. It is way more powerful than any Amiga OS4.1 capable machine I can buy
3. It did not make any sense for me to pay nearly 1000 Euro to be able to run Amiga OS4.1 when MorphOS does the job just as well (if not even better).

Sure, you may argue that MorphOS is 'not Amiga', but once you start using it, it will be hard to notice that its 'not AMiga'.

If Hyperion decide to bring on AMiga OS4.1 to PPC MACs, i would get it and have a very nice dual OS machine, but I cannot justify spending big euro when what I got does the job so nicely.
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2010, 07:52:47 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;586861
Its funny Alan, I find myself agreeing with you on far to many points.


Don't worry, the nauseous sensation that comes with it passes with time, so I'm told ;)

Quote from: Iggy;586861

Being one of the people hanging on to PPC based systems, I love a new vanity based too cool for words piece of hardware. I just can't wrap my mind around the pricing.


I have to say I didn't really have much of an opinion on the X1000, I figured it was another vapour project. Then we saw real hardware and that mind bogglingly epic projected price tag... From kinda neat but a bit "meh" for me to holy shit, that is mentally expensive! In the space of a youtube vid.

Sam 460 looks to be about the only semi viable PPC system that looks like it'll see the light of day. Hopefully the X1000 won't have done too much damage by then.
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phoenixkonsole

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2010, 08:23:03 AM »
Hi i made an offer:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32037&forum=25#585879

Stay PPC, focus on PPC but allow me to install your OS "emulated" on the AresOne....

Pro:
Hyperion/ Team Moprhos have even more HW
both get license fees from me (for exclusive right)
both can sell more licenses
both can use the money to finance PPC development
I could sell more to finance AROS AMD64 development

Contra:
- i am not the right one to find anything against it : D
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2010, 08:23:12 AM »
Quote from: minator;586860
Glad someone agrees with me on that.


Only someone who had never really followed the BeOS scene would say otherwise tbh.

Quote from: minator;586860

AFAIK the reason they dumped PPC was they had no machines to develop for.  They had been targeting Mac clones but as soon as they were cancelled they had no choice but to switch to x86.


They had been running on CHRP hardware after dropping the BeBox, when the newer G3 kit came out they were faced with the choice of X86 only or building their own PPC kit from scratch again due to Apple being very coy about the internals of their newer stuff - that's what I meant by the cost of PPC development.

--ninjar edits--
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 08:30:57 AM by the_leander »
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Offline rebraist

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2010, 10:42:21 AM »
@phoenixkonsole:
i don't know why, but i smell you have it already working...
does it work fast?:D (tell me yes please)
;)
I\'m not an heretic: an heretic is a morphos user! I\'m a perverted: i\'m an aros user!
edit:...i\'m now an heretic perverted... i\'m a morpharosian...
Evil has no limits... I\'ve even os4.1 too...
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Offline jj

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2010, 10:56:10 AM »
There is no point in going over to X86.   The point that would have been sensible is long long gone.  It might have worked when comodore were still around.
 
These days what would be the point, and before you say cheap hardware, that is not enough.
 
It would take a massive amount of work to port and then you would have to run all the old applications in an emualtion, like you do now on the ppc.  So what would be the point just use winuae.  
 
OS4 or MorphOS just do not offer enough against linux, macOsx and windows.
 
MorphsOS and I assume  OS4(not tried it , as there is no way to try OS4 without buying) are ok for a hobby next gen Amiga OS on PPC hardware.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2010, 12:44:42 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;586849
I think you guys are missing a vital point.
If AOS4 was ported to X86 processors, do you really think they'd sell a lot more copies? Or would most PC users still continue to use Windows, OSX, and maybe Linux?
Who would they sell it to? Us, the fanatics willing to still support this market (and there really aren't many of us).

Why are we constantly rehashing our personal opinions on platforms when we already have variants covering every major processor type except ARM?

And I'm baffled at the X1000 bashing. If you don't like the high price (which again folks is primarily caused by the low volume limited market) and you want an X86 machine support AROS. Yes the X1000 is overpriced, but I'm know the designer and Treavor hired to only company I'm aware of that could have built a machine to this spec. It may be the last major PPC system introduced, and yes its definately a vanity machine because its spec are damned nice.
Further if PPCs are dead, why are Appliedv Micro and Freescale still introducing new models?

Again, no matter what your prejudice, there's an Amiga related system available (or about to be introduced) that will suit you.
Totally into pain? Stick with legacy hardware. Its still out there (even NOS systems) and there's still software and hardware being developed for it. And if you're patient (and have a lot of faith) you can wait for the Natami.
Those of us who have gotten over the whole "Amiga" name things and just want to continue to evolve are using MorphOS (and we welcome Hyperion to the PPC table because virtually any software created for AOS4 is likely to be ported to MOS).

And again, want to use only one core of your X86 machine and tout a 3d graphics system that's still pretty buggy? Use AROS, because they will keep improving it.
(SNIP)

Intel Core i5/i7 includes Turbo Boost feature.

When the processor has not reached its thermal and electrical limits and the user's workload demands additional performance, the processor clock frequency will dynamically increase in increments of 133 MHz on short and regular intervals until a thermal or power limit is reached or the maximum speed for the number of active cores is reached. Conversely, when any of the limits are reached or exceeded, the processor frequency will automatically decrease in increments of 133 MHz until the processor is again operating within its limits.
- wiki


An example, my Intel Core i7-740QM (4 cores/8  threads) @1.73Ghz overclocks to 2.93Ghz during single thread task.

With 3 or 4 cores active: to 1.86 GHz
With 2 cores active: to 2.53 Ghz
With only 1 core active: to 2.93 Ghz


Another example , i7-920XM with normal operating frequency is 2.0GHz

With 3 or 4 cores active: to 2.26GHz —————> 2000 + 2 × 133.33 = 2000 + 266.66 ≃ 2266
With 2 cores active: to 3.06GHz ———————> 2000 + 8 × 133.33 = 2000 + 1066.64 ≃ 3067
With only 1 core active: to 3.20GHz —————–> 2000 + 9 × 133.33 = 2000 + 1199.97 ≃ 3200

The older Intel Core 2 Duo T7x00 includes a limited Turbo Boost feature.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 12:50:07 PM by Hammer »
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Offline vidarh

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2010, 12:52:45 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;586772
and what does it reveal about them in your opinion?
me, if i was still slightly interested i would be really cautious now.


It tells me they are aware of the Osborne effect, and knows that talking about future hardware/support while trying to sell the "current generation" is a sure-fire way to bankruptcy.
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2010, 01:12:41 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;586871

For 2000-3000$, I can build a 16 core x86 beast that would absolutely
smoke anything the x1000 can do. Kinda hard to decide instead, I'm
going to buy a 2ghz ppc with amiga os, oh and only one core will
be useable by my os... ? They are joking right?


You miss the point. Nobody buys Amiga/AmigaOne for the performance anymore. Nobody. And from a e/perormance point of view, even picking up classics or Minimigs or buying accelerators off Ebay etc. would be lunacy.

The X1000 is not competing with PC's on price. They are not expecting to take people who worry about the performance. They want to deliver "fast enough" for people to justify buying an experience.

As an example, my current laptop cost about 1/3 of my wifes Macbook. They have the *exact same CPU*. Mine has more memory and a bigger disk. None of them are particularly fast, but they are fast enough we could both easily do with a slower machine if we had to. People buy into the Apple experience.

First of all, there's a substantial subset of Hyperions and Aeons potential customers that really, really don't want x86 for whatever reasons. Secondly, there's a group of people like me, that, if the X1000 was just another x86 box would need something exceptional to consider it, but that are willing and able to pay a substantial premium for something that is *different*. The combination of PPC and OS4 makes it fit the bill nicely.

People spend money on things because they are different all the time. I spent as much on my Minimig as I did for my laptop, despite how much less capable the Minimig is (my laptop can easily outperform it with UAE in far better screen modes, for example, and it has HDMI output). Because it was fun and different.

The second core thing is annoying, but irrelevant: This model would be mostly as appealing with a single core, but going dual core makes very little difference in price these days and creates the expectation that "soon" we'll see support for it, and hence make the machine faster for people. And at least some users will be interested in running Linux on it too.

If this was intended to be a mass market product competing on price/performance, you'd be right. As it stands, they are competing only for a very small, very specific segment of people for whom price/performance is not going to be the primary consideration. Time will tell whether that market segment is big enough to bring them enough of a profit to survive, and hopefully to be able to aim bigger next time.
 

Offline jsixis

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2010, 02:36:37 PM »
If they do it correctly I would drop windows in a heartbeat.
 I own no loyalty to any processor or any hardware, I just want a friendly OS
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2010, 03:56:31 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;586885
I'm not sure how supporting every x86 device is considered a problem when we've been scrounging up PCI Voodoo3's and 5v ATI cards on ebay for years and thought it was just grand.

If we had support for just one or two current pieces of hardware we'd be ecstatic.


If you've been following the AROS scene, we have drivers for high-end NVidia cards (PCIe interfaced), one high-end sound card, a few mid-range network adapters, and some other high-end peripherals.  The table is set already but we can't sit down at the meal for lack of something to eat!  We need software!

LLVM will at least make it possible to compile software for every supported architecture including PPC and AMD64.  The SAM440ep already has PPC AROS for it so if anybody wanted to migrate to AROS, they could.  Now do you see what I mean by "all of the above"?
 

Offline persia

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2010, 04:45:32 PM »
@vidarh

But the real question is how many people would be using OS 4 if they ported it to X86, not that people are willing to pay a hefty premium to run it on X1000.  If Hyperion sold OS 4 for say €100 or €150 and you could run it on a certain proportion of standard equipment or VirtualBox, I would have plunked down the cash six months ago.  I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

I don't think anyone is against Hyperion making a living off it's product, but there is so much good stuff out there making demands of my bank account, some of it starts with small i, but there are some neat Android tablets too and phones and video players and and and.  Plus being able to run on X86 you double the value of the X86 equipment you purchase.  Not only is it your MS Windows/OS X/Linux workhorse, it's also your aOS play toy.  Every core, every GB of RAM, every GB on your graphics card gets doubled by being both your work and play machine.

Essentially X1000 plays to the hard core, what I'm looking for plays to the enthusiast with a limited budget...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 04:48:16 PM by persia »
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Offline orb85750

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2010, 06:01:41 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;586446
As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.


I certainly understand the desire NOT to follow everyone else, including the once-upon-a-time "Think Different" Apple, onto x86.  Plus Hermans seems very happy with the PPC prospects.   Excerpt from Amigakit website:

Ben Hermans encourages people to look at Freescale P4 P5 architectures for future of AmigaOne range.  He says PowerPC is still a viable platform for the future.  Potentially 8 cores running at 1.5Ghz: "mind boggling performance"
 

Offline kedawa

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #87 on: October 25, 2010, 07:33:18 PM »
So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000.  Mind boggling indeed.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2010, 07:40:30 PM »
Quote from: kedawa;586983
So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000.  Mind boggling indeed.


Only Amiga makes it possible!  LOL
 

Offline orb85750

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #89 from previous page: October 25, 2010, 07:47:46 PM »
Quote from: kedawa;586983
So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000.  Mind boggling indeed.


I'm not for or against OS4/X1000 etc. at this point (I've never even used OS4), but the implication is that they will not be idle in future OS versions -- obviously.