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Author Topic: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?  (Read 29451 times)

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Offline the_leander

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 10:28:10 AM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;584409
I vote for the 680x0.  Since the heart of the Amiga is its unique graphics chipset, that limits the future to FPGA and similar technologies.  As long as FPGAs are affordable, we should stick with 680x0 softcores to make them a compact SoC.  Viva MiniMig, NatAmi, and CloneAA!


Actually it was the the whole FPGA thing that made me pick "other"... Hmm!

Quote from: save2600;584424
BS.

Most of us CAN afford new hardware.


Whilst I get what you're trying to say, I think you're ignoring what he said - which was that they couldn't afford PPC hardware.

And given the cost even of a new Sam, much less the projected price of the X1000, is perfectly valid, even to the point of your own comment being true at the same time.
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Offline coldfish

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 10:37:25 AM »
x86, eventhough its long past CPU choice being an improtant issue with the Amiga's "future".  

Even if OS4 or 5 (or whatever) arrived tommorrow for x86 archetecture the Amiga's future would be much the same; still struggling for relevance in the 2010 computing world.  Harsh but true unfortunately, the magic died the day Commodore went belly up.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 11:04:02 AM »
Quote from: orb85750;584375
Tough question?


Not a tough question at all. PPC in a shape and form that would be interesting to us is dead. X86 would be the best way to go, if desktop is the future of Amiga. But it's also the most difficult, as I have been told (something to do with endians ;)).

Easier would perhaps be ARM, and lots of things are happening in the ARM world now. The Cortex A8 is being established, the Cortex A9 is growing, and...

"The launch of the Cortex-A15 MPCore processor marks the beginning of an entirely new era for the ARM Partnership."

Well, that's no understatement!

Its simplest/lowest performance version (for next-generation smartphones) offers "5x performance improvement over today’s advanced smartphone processors, within a comparable energy footprint", and it scales up to quad-core configurations and speeds of up to 2.5Ghz, clearly breaking the boundaries of traditional applications where ARM has been used, and well into x86 territory.

Some companies are already using ARM in server configurations, something that probably will increase with Cortex-A15. Virtualisation is built right into the server variants of these chips, and they can support up to one terabyte of memory.

http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-unveils-cortex-a15-mpcore-processor-to-dramatically-accelerate-capabilities.php

The road map suggests that 2012 will be when it gets released.



I'd like to see MorphOS ported to ARM!

:)
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Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2010, 11:25:37 AM »
Just remember that the boat is sailing. If it's going to be ported to ARM start soon. How about on one of those Android tablets?
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Offline sim085

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2010, 11:42:37 AM »
Architecturally can the PPC ever reach the performance of the x86!?
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2010, 01:06:39 PM »
Quote from: sim085;584453
Architecturally can the PPC ever reach the performance of the x86!?

All that and cheaper too. Only problem is you would only expect a thousand sales compare to 200million for an Xbox360.
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Offline dammy

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2010, 01:08:43 PM »
If this is reference to AmigaOS from Hyperion, it should remain PPC.  I see no financial reason for Hyperion to under take such a man power intensive project to port a OS that can never generate a profit.  I don't think they have the number of Devs to do a port if they wanted to.

I don't see a reason for MOS to go x86 either for basically the same reasons.

If you want x86/PPC Amiga-like OS, it's called AROS which is being ported to Genesi's EFIKA-MX.  You want to support it financially, go pick a bounty of your fancy and spend some meaningful money or buy a iMica or AresOne.  

If someone developes a true next generation AmigaOS that isn't hobbled by 3.1 API, I may be interested in supporting that myself if there is some intelligent road map for it.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2010, 01:12:31 PM »
Quote from: sim085;584453
Architecturally can the PPC ever reach the performance of the x86!?


The problem is not in getting PPC to match x86 on a given day, IBM have proven repeatedly that they are more than capable of doing so.

The problem is in maintaining parity between x86 and PPC once they meet.

Telecoms don't tend to need ultra fast PPC's as they use SOCs with the grunt work being passed onto specialised bits of silicon rather than a general purpose cpu so as to save power and reduce heat output.

Even the chips in the current games consoles really aren't all that, not that they were that competitive to begin with in raw performance terms.
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Offline dammy

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2010, 01:21:17 PM »
Quote from: sim085;584453
Architecturally can the PPC ever reach the performance of the x86!?


As far as desktop CPUs?  Unless IBM is going to release new PPC cores, not happening.  Only thing Freescale is doing is repackaging the old cores.  IBM's cells are for consoles and not suited for desktops.  That leaves you basically with x86_64 or ARM as CPU choices that are in constant development.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2010, 01:23:21 PM »
Quote from: nikodr;584397
We have the problem of endianess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness it is unlikely that amigaos will ever be ported to x86 and boot natively.That thing wont be an amiga.PPC can change the endianess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC#Endian_modes but i dont think it would be easy to port it to x86.So x86 is definitely out of the question for me.
Also from the same page Endianness and operating systems on architectures
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Another reason is, we want Amiga applications to be run as native applications in AROS, or first class citizens, if you like. An Amiga application should be able to talk to the AREXX port of an AROS application, and the other way around. When the Amiga application calls a library, it will automatically be a native AROS library, running some Amiga applications at close to AROS speeds, for instance when using datatypes.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 01:27:15 PM by Hammer »
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2010, 01:32:19 PM »
Quote from: nikodr;584402
From http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwbarthel_en.php

"The high price of the AmigaOne X1000 seems to be an argument, for lots of amigans, to not buy the machine. A solution to sell lot more copies of AmigaOS could be an x86 version. What is your opinion about that?

In this small market price is always an issue. The kind of power the X1000 provides, for such a small customer base, naturally results in a high price. As things stand today, you cannot make this kind of gear in sufficiently large enough volume to bring down the cost and consequently the price.

I consider the x86 path a pipe dream. AmigaOS has no platform/porting layer: it is hardwired to a big-endian host platform, not just the fundamentals but also its data structures. I would say that the chances to see AmigaOS run on an ARM are much higher than to see it run on an x86 family processor. If you wanted to make it work on an x86 host, you would have to throw out all existing Amiga software designed to run on the 68k platform, much of which is still useful today (I would go so far as saying that it is not just useful, it is necessary). You would have to throw away much of the operating system and replace it.

Even if you were to make all of that happen as part of an x86 port, you would have to make significant sacrifices. I doubt that any of these would result in a viable product."

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Offline nikodr

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2010, 01:36:27 PM »
Quote from: sim085;584453
Architecturally can the PPC ever reach the performance of the x86!?


What about the ppc in PS3 ?
 

Offline persia

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2010, 01:39:38 PM »
ARM might be the way to go.  Write multi-touch support into the OS and develop a tablet.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2010, 01:45:36 PM »
Quote from: djrikki;584444

Reading through a few comments on here.  As far as I understood it PPC has a smaller instruction set than x86 and like for like will run much faster than an x86.

PowerPC G3 has more instructions than Pentium II i.e. refer to http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-5.html

---
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computing

A common misunderstanding of the phrase "reduced instruction set computer" is the mistaken idea that instructions are simply eliminated, resulting in a smaller set of instructions. In fact, over the years, RISC instruction sets have grown in size, and today many of them have a larger set of instructions than many CISC CPUs.[6][7] Some RISC processors such as the INMOS Transputer have instruction sets as large as, say, the CISC IBM System/370; and conversely, the DEC PDP-8 – clearly a CISC CPU because many of its instructions involve multiple memory accesses – has only 8 basic instructions, plus a few extended instructions.

The term "reduced" in that phrase was intended to describe the fact that the amount of work any single instruction accomplishes is reduced – at most a single data memory cycle – compared to the "complex instructions" of CISC CPUs that may require dozens of data memory cycles in order to execute a single instruction.[8] In particular, RISC processors typically have separate instructions for I/O and data processing; as a consequence, industry observers have started using the terms "register-register" or "load-store" to describe RISC processors.

Some CPUs have been retroactively dubbed RISC — a Byte magazine article once referred to the 6502 as "the original RISC processor" due to its simplistic and nearly orthogonal instruction set (most instructions work with most addressing modes) as well as its 256 zero-page "registers". The 6502 is no load/store design however: arithmetic operations may read memory, and instructions like INC and ROL even modify memory. Furthermore, orthogonality is equally often associated with "CISC". However, the 6502 may be regarded as similar to RISC (and early machines) in the fact that it uses no microcode sequencing. However, the well known fact that it employed longer but fewer clock cycles compared to many contemporary microprocessors was due to a more asynchronous design with less subdivision of internal machine cycles. This is similar to early machines, but not to RISC.
----------------------------------------------------

The Concept of the Instruction Set Architecture from http://arstechnica.com/cpu/2q00/x86future/isa-future-2.html

RISC vs. CISC: the Post-RISC Era from http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-1.html

RISC and CISC, Side by Side from http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-5.html

RISC vs. CISC Conclusion from http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-6.html

Both the Athlon and the P6 run the CISC x86 ISA in what amounts to hardware emulation, but they translate the x86 instructions into smaller, RISC-like operations that fed into a fully post-RISC core.  Their cores have a number of RISC features (LOAD/STORE memory access, pipelined execution, reduced instructions, expanded register count via register renaming), to which are added all of the post-RISC features we've discussed.  The Athlon muddies the waters even further in that it uses both direct execution and a microcode engine for instruction decoding.  A crucial difference between the Athlon (and P6) and the G4 is that, as already noted, the Athlon must translate x86 instructions into smaller RISC ops.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:05:09 PM by Hammer »
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Offline billt

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2010, 01:52:57 PM »
I'm not against PPC in terms of architecture, and I understand tht going x86 is a different kind of step than the move from 68k to PPC, as that doesn't just change instruction sets, but also has the change in endianness to tackle, and is thus a lot of work. We know it took a very long time to get to PPC. It'll take another very long time to see x86 if that's chosen. Yes, Apple shows us it is possible, though they did have a bit more money to throw at the problem. AROS also shows us some things.

But, while I'm not against PPC, I do find it very frusrating that I cannot get a portable AmigaOS solution, even though PPC laptops do exist.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Do you approve of PPC (in some form) as the future of Amiga?
« Reply #44 from previous page: October 13, 2010, 02:09:21 PM »
MorphOS 3.0 on Apple PowerBook G4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V89YwHFoXyw
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