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Author Topic: Excitement about NatAmi  (Read 97886 times)

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #374 from previous page: December 09, 2010, 03:34:06 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;597844
Very well said.

No problem Nicholas. I know you've been following the general discussions covering PPC systems. Over the last couple of years, I've frequently seen the Cell and the Xenon held as as superior architectures.
Its not that they're bad designs, but if you compare their performance to other PPCs they have a higher top frequency and a lower IPC.
If we were to see MorphOS or AmigaOS ported to these platforms, their performance wouldn't be much better than hardware we already have.

I'll wait for PA6T or G5 performance. Lower clock speed, but better performance.
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Offline kedawa

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #375 on: December 09, 2010, 04:29:18 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;597843
Could you stop posting your opinion and consider providing facts?
Xenon is very much an enhanced tri-core Cell PPE derivative.

And since both the Cell and the Xenon are in order processors, their actual performance per cycle is a little lower than many other PPC cores.

Multi-core or multiprocessor? Well, as I see it, if its on the same die its a single processor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Math co-processors used to be off die, and even then they were only considered co-processors. That may all the SPE should be considered.


Could you not be so snarky?
I was replying to Bif's comment that the 'autonomy' of the SPEs make it more "multi-core".
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #376 on: December 09, 2010, 10:40:58 AM »
Quote from: Bif;597832
I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory. Other than that, those CPUs can do pretty much any kind of computation other CPUs can, except they are pretty short on local memory.

In order to leverage all those Cell SPEs you have to design your software architecture and code REALLY well (e.g. tasks/jobs instead of the traditionally used threads). A byproduct of this is that the task/job code you design for this is usually easier to scale up to hundreds of cores as compared to a threaded model.

Once you have code that will run on Cell, it is relatively easy to port it to the kind of multi-core you find on 360 and PC. The other way around is not true though if you didn't take PS3 into account. So in some ways while I hate Cell, it is also probably a good heads up on how software needs to be designed moving forward. So I think tech will be more ready for hundreds of core than we might think, if that ever happens. Maybe with the Epic thing, they aren't sure if the hardware will be powerful enough.


No-one is going forward with a design like the Cell for any platform, it's an evolutionary dead end. Better to spend more on the CPU than be stuck with something so awkward to develop for. Besides tasks/jobs are a common way of feeding multiple threads which is simply what the task/job system for the SPEs hid from you by using the SPURS library.

Instead of SPEs we'll see more fully formed AMP systems where the SPEs can actually access main memory and handle more than 32k in or out at once.

Quote from: Bif;597832
Anyway, not that this has much to do with Natami. Thinking of SMP on there seems very ridiculous at this point when its not even being done on AROS/Morphos/AOS4.x. I think if anything it would make more sense to extend the CPU with SIMD first.


This is the relevant part, extending it with SIMD, pipelining the N68050/70 better, making it OoO etc are probably all  a better idea right now than making the system SMP capable.

There's good argument for having another CPU to offload tasks to like the GP2X's second ARM cpu be used for or the PlayStation2's IOP. That's more like treating the second cpu as a co-processor.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #377 on: December 09, 2010, 05:54:09 PM »
Quote from: AJCopland;597873
No-one is going forward with a design like the Cell for any platform, it's an evolutionary dead end. Better to spend more on the CPU than be stuck with something so awkward to develop for. Besides tasks/jobs are a common way of feeding multiple threads which is simply what the task/job system for the SPEs hid from you by using the SPURS library.

Instead of SPEs we'll see more fully formed AMP systems where the SPEs can actually access main memory and handle more than 32k in or out at once.



This is the relevant part, extending it with SIMD, pipelining the N68050/70 better, making it OoO etc are probably all  a better idea right now than making the system SMP capable.

There's good argument for having another CPU to offload tasks to like the GP2X's second ARM cpu be used for or the PlayStation2's IOP. That's more like treating the second cpu as a co-processor.

OK nothing 'Snarky' to this comment. Its interesting to see other groups/camps within the Amiga community considering asymmetrical multiprocessor applications. We've discussed this idea on MorphZone a few times as a method for utilizing additional cores without breaking compatibility with legacy software.
Unlike SMP though, it seems more suited to OS operations than as a method of running additional threads.

You guys have impressed me with your grasp of the potential applications for this.
Should this approach become common in Amigiod platforms, how do you all think it will complicate cross platform development?
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Offline Belial6

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #378 on: December 09, 2010, 07:34:17 PM »
I'm not doing OS development, so I understand my limited exposure, but I would think that if the design were done right, it should make things MORE cross platform.

It would be nice if the system were approached from a virtualization/emulation standpoint.  What I mean is that the base OS could determine what processors were available when it initilized, and then could pass off tasks to the processors or subsystems that were most proficient at the particular task.  This would require a base virtual machine/emulator that could be the fall back if the the target platform didn't exist.

This is one thing that AmigaDE had right in concept.  We have seen this actually implemented with graphics cards.  I don't know if it still has it, but at one time, any features of DirectX that were not implemented in the graphics card would be emulated in software.  We already have very effective AMP in most systems with one processor running graphics, and a completely different architecture running the rest of the code.

As long as there is a fall back virtual machine, the effort to port to new platforms should be trivial in comparison to porting the entire OS.  New platforms would require a small (in comparison) effort to get the base system up and running, and then anything after that would be optimization.

I suspect that in the short run, this would have a performance hit, but in the long run, it would keep the system from being tied to any one system.  It would also allow for an unprecedented level of backward compatibility, as you could always run the old system as a subsystem of the new one.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #379 on: December 10, 2010, 07:01:43 PM »
Quote from: Belial6;597936
This is one thing that AmigaDE had right in concept.  We have seen this actually implemented with graphics cards.  I don't know if it still has it, but at one time, any features of DirectX that were not implemented in the graphics card would be emulated in software.  We already have very effective AMP in most systems with one processor running graphics, and a completely different architecture running the rest of the code.

As long as there is a fall back virtual machine, the effort to port to new platforms should be trivial in comparison to porting the entire OS.  New platforms would require a small (in comparison) effort to get the base system up and running, and then anything after that would be optimization.

I suspect that in the short run, this would have a performance hit, but in the long run, it would keep the system from being tied to any one system.  It would also allow for an unprecedented level of backward compatibility, as you could always run the old system as a subsystem of the new one.


As an AROS developer and LLVM supporter you should know about this PDF.  It's an attempt to run Google Native Client apps in the browser regardless of what processor it has.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #380 on: December 13, 2010, 12:41:34 AM »
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #381 on: December 13, 2010, 12:53:59 AM »
FYI: That PDF is actually old and out of date.  You will find some hidden goodies later. :cool:
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Offline Louis Dias

Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #382 on: December 13, 2010, 04:40:14 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;598367
FYI: That PDF is actually old and out of date.  You will find some hidden goodies later. :cool:


SATA I hope!
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #383 on: December 13, 2010, 06:20:49 AM »
Quote from: JJ;597579

Yeah I know when it comes to the PS3 is a quesion of debate about cores.  But the 360 is 100% multicore
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware


Xbox 360's PPE X3 is SMP (symmetric multiprocessing) while CELL is AMP (asymmetric multiprocessing).
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #384 on: December 13, 2010, 06:30:36 AM »
Quote from: Bif;597832

I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory. Other than that, those CPUs can do pretty much any kind of computation other CPUs can, except they are pretty short on local memory.

In order to leverage all those Cell SPEs you have to design your software architecture and code REALLY well (e.g. tasks/jobs instead of the traditionally used threads). A byproduct of this is that the task/job code you design for this is usually easier to scale up to hundreds of cores as compared to a threaded model.

AMD Opteron Socket G34 can already scale to 8 sockets with 12 cores per chip package i.e. 96 X86 OOO cores.

Quote from: Bif;597832

Once you have code that will run on Cell, it is relatively easy to port it to the kind of multi-core you find on 360 and PC. The other way around is not true though if you didn't take PS3 into account. So in some ways while I hate Cell, it is also probably a good heads up on how software needs to be designed moving forward. So I think tech will be more ready for hundreds of core than we might think, if that ever happens. Maybe with the Epic thing, they aren't sure if the hardware will be powerful enough.

Anyway, not that this has much to do with Natami. Thinking of SMP on there seems very ridiculous at this point when its not even being done on AROS/Morphos/AOS4.x. I think if anything it would make more sense to extend the CPU with SIMD first.


AMD redefines it's on-chip GPU as "SIMD Array" i.e. the "GPU" is marketing terminology from NVIDIA. ATI GPUs ussually includes it's own command processor.

http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/05/ibm-cheats-on-cell-with-nvidia-tesla-for-servers.ars
"IBM cheats on Cell with NVIDIA Tesla for servers"
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 06:59:38 AM by Hammer »
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #385 on: December 13, 2010, 06:36:06 AM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;598093

As an AROS developer and LLVM supporter you should know about this PDF.  It's an attempt to run Google Native Client apps in the browser regardless of what processor it has.

For legacy support, Google wants to have C++ LLVM.
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Offline Franko

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #386 on: December 13, 2010, 07:04:03 AM »
Quote from: lou_dias;595246
No one wants to buy a computer today that can't get online out of the box...the Natami team included.


I disagree with that view...

To me the main reason for the Natami is quite simple, I'd like to be able to buy a new Amiga that can run all my old software, hopefully a bit faster on things like PageStream & ImageFX, without having to scour ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an 060 board.

The ability to access the net would be nice but not a necessity... :)
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #387 on: December 13, 2010, 01:47:08 PM »
Quote from: Franko;598388
I disagree with that view...

To me the main reason for the Natami is quite simple, I'd like to be able to buy a new Amiga that can run all my old software, hopefully a bit faster on things like PageStream & ImageFX, without having to scour ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an 060 board.

The ability to access the net would be nice but not a necessity... :)


In that case, the ReplayArcade board may suit your needs. (aka fpgaarcade).
The initial MX run will come with '060 cards so that will still be pricey.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #388 on: December 13, 2010, 04:12:26 PM »
Quote from: Hammer;598387
For legacy support, Google wants to have C++ LLVM.


LLVM-GCC is being dropped in favor of Clang if that's what you're referring to.  For up-to-date status as of a month or so ago, there's an MP4 outlining the PNaCl project at the LLVM Developers' Conference 2010 web site.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #389 on: December 13, 2010, 04:36:09 PM »
Quote from: kedawa;597729
I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth. Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.

How can it be a myth when it comes from the guy working for IBM?
 
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3904/processing_the_truth_an_interview_.php
 
The powerpc chip in the xenon and the cell is basically the same & it was designed for sony. Apart from the instruction set, it has nothing in common with older designs & yet they both have a lot of things in common.
 
I didn't realise that anyone didn't know this.