Excitement about NatAmi

[jj]

Did some Google searches, surprised to see one of my games, "Warhammer" (or "Wowhammer";-) has multi core support. Once the consoles go multi core, I think that is when you will see the last of the new games coming out without being designed for multi core. Unreal Engine 4 is for the day when we have "massively multi-core processor" according to Epic's Mark Rein.
 
Anyone remember the days Amiga folks use to rag on Window users for not using a multi tasking OS? My, how times have changed as hardware evolved. I know, just use Linux and be happy it can do the grunt work in a SMP environment.

 
I thought both the 360 and PS3 were multi-core ?

[Forcie]

One of the non-team members made the claim it would be $800 on the Natami forum.
So... Could that have originated from a team member though?

Alright, consider this an official statement from the Natami Team then: Thomas is done with the board design and is currently looking up good deals on parts and evaluating various production solutions for manufacturing the boards. Only after he is done with this we can set a price for the board. This might take some time and might not be announced until after board bringup, though. You need to be sure that you actually can sell at a price before announcing it - at least if you are not a big player who can pour in millions after millions of dollars to make possible obstacles and problems go away.

Personally, I think that the above figure might be at least be in the same ballpark for a six layered board with the components we use, in the quantities we will manufacture it - but that is just a guess as good as anyone elses. In a while, we will see. Everything is focused on getting things up and running now, not on marketing issues

[dammy]

I thought both the 360 and PS3 were multi-core ?

Are they?  I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs?  Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue.  Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.  

Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not.  At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.

[Hattig]

Are they?  I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs?  Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue.  Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.  

Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not.  At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.

The 360 is a three-way PowerPC core, each core can run two threads at the same time. There are no SPEs.

The PS3 is a single-core PowerPC with two threads, and six SPEs available to the end application to utilise.

I don't think NatAmi will need an SMP aware OS for a while. First step is the 68050. Next step is the 68070. After that maybe they will want to add in SMP capability to the core - but that's surely several years and a hardware revision away?

[jj]

Yeah I know when it comes to the PS3 is a quesion of debate about cores.  But the 360 is 100% multicore
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware

[psxphill]

Yeah I know when it comes to the PS3 is a quesion of debate about cores. But the 360 is 100% multicore
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware

basically the 360 has 3 of the cpu's that sony paid ibm to develop, each of which supports two simultaneous threads.

[Karlos]

Next step is the 68070

Bindun and it was truly awful (phillips 68000 clone, used in CDi). I suggest you aim for 68080

[SamuraiCrow]

I don't think NatAmi will need an SMP aware OS for a while. First step is the 68050. Next step is the 68070. After that maybe they will want to add in SMP capability to the core - but that's surely several years and a hardware revision away?

SMP will not come to the NatAmi at this time.  ASMP (asymmetric multiprocessing) is quite likely, however.  It may no longer be called the Robin core but it will run AHI drivers for mixing and other functions.  I'm hoping for a hardware matrix solver before too long since that would come in handy for many functions but priorities lie on the N68050 and the SuperAGA cores.

@Karlos and Hattig
The NatAmi's processor softcore is the N68050 to differentiate from the discontinued Motorola 68050 chip.  Likewise the sequel to it is called the N68070 to differentiate it from the Phillips 68070 chip.

[kedawa]

basically the 360 has 3 of the cpu's that sony paid ibm to develop

I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth.  Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.

[Hattig]

I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth.  Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.

He's talking about the fact that IBM developed the PowerPC Processing Element that was used within Cell, and then used three of them for the XBox 360 chip. This is because IBM developed it and kept the IP, rather than Sony. It's hardly stealing but Sony will probably have a tougher contract next time!

[Bif]

Are they?  I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs?  Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue.  Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.  

Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not.  At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.

I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory. Other than that, those CPUs can do pretty much any kind of computation other CPUs can, except they are pretty short on local memory.

In order to leverage all those Cell SPEs you have to design your software architecture and code REALLY well (e.g. tasks/jobs instead of the traditionally used threads). A byproduct of this is that the task/job code you design for this is usually easier to scale up to hundreds of cores as compared to a threaded model.

Once you have code that will run on Cell, it is relatively easy to port it to the kind of multi-core you find on 360 and PC. The other way around is not true though if you didn't take PS3 into account. So in some ways while I hate Cell, it is also probably a good heads up on how software needs to be designed moving forward. So I think tech will be more ready for hundreds of core than we might think, if that ever happens. Maybe with the Epic thing, they aren't sure if the hardware will be powerful enough.

Anyway, not that this has much to do with Natami. Thinking of SMP on there seems very ridiculous at this point when its not even being done on AROS/Morphos/AOS4.x. I think if anything it would make more sense to extend the CPU with SIMD first.

[gregthecanuck]

If multiple cores come out for Natami one option is to run an instance of the OS on each core. Much more scalable in the long run. Memory is cheap. Interconnects are cheap.

[kedawa]

I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory.

As I see it, that makes it less "multi-core" and more "multi-processor".

[Iggy]

As I see it, that makes it less "multi-core" and more "multi-processor".

Could you stop posting your opinion and consider providing facts?
Xenon is very much an enhanced tri-core Cell PPE derivative.

And since both the Cell and the Xenon are in order processors, their actual performance per cycle is a little lower than many other PPC cores.

Multi-core or multiprocessor? Well, as I see it, if its on the same die its a single processor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Math co-processors used to be off die, and even then they were only considered co-processors. That may all the SPE should be considered.

[nicholas]

Could you stop posting your opinion and consider providing facts?
Xenon is very much an enhanced tri-core Cell PPE derivative.

And since both the Cell and the Xenon are in order processors, their actual performance per cycle is a little lower than many other PPC cores.

Multi-core or multiprocessor? Well, as I see it, if its on the same die its a single processor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Math co-processors used to be off die, and even then they were only considered co-processors. That may all the SPE should be considered.

Very well said.

[Iggy]

Very well said.

No problem Nicholas. I know you've been following the general discussions covering PPC systems. Over the last couple of years, I've frequently seen the Cell and the Xenon held as as superior architectures.
Its not that they're bad designs, but if you compare their performance to other PPCs they have a higher top frequency and a lower IPC.
If we were to see MorphOS or AmigaOS ported to these platforms, their performance wouldn't be much better than hardware we already have.

I'll wait for PA6T or G5 performance. Lower clock speed, but better performance.