Excitement about NatAmi

[SamuraiCrow]

First off, as a member of the Natami team it would be unprofessional of me to allow hopes to get excessively high.  Without a prototype to test on we can't do much profiling.

Secondly, we can test the VHDL code with a simulator so it looks like the N68050 is right on track to be clocked at 133 MHz and to be able to combine instruction sequences internally for one instruction cycle-per-clock execution for most instructions.

Lastly, I think that the "almost ready" figure was a reference to AGA chipset feature set and didn't include the N68050/070 CPU core.  Also, I've mentioned in a previous post that the Natami LX was a prototype and had some performance lapses in it preventing it from going to market.

[Belial6]

Which is why I say that the biggest challenge for Natami is to get released before it becomes irrelevant.  The first MiniMig was released in 2007 as a match to the low end of Commodores product line.  The Replay (basically MiniMig 2) board will be a match to the high end of Commodores product line.  This is while using only a 3rd of the gates on the board.  Given the awsome improvements in the original MiniMig, it would be shocking if we didn't see some major improvements in the Replay boards once they are out and about.

If someone decides to build a MiniMig 3, and it is as much of an improvement over the Replay board as the Replay is over the original MiniMig, it will surpass the target of the NatAmi, and the NatAmi will be an expensive board that brings nothing to the table.

If it is just a hobby for the developers, then there is no loss, but if they have dreams of being relavent to the rest of the Amiga community, they will need to get things wrapped up soon, or be relegated to the status of Vaporware.

[Belial6]

@SamaraiCrow

OK, help me be clear on this, as I have seen many things said by people that are not part of the team.  Is the NatAmi intended to be a Closed Source/Open Source, and is it intended to be a personal hobby project/a player in the wider Amiga community?

There is a lot of arguing that goes around based on different perceptions of what the NatAmi team is claiming for their goal.  The two criteria above sets many of those expectations.  If you have previously stated the goals in respect to open/closed and private/public, I am sorry to have to reask, but I missed it if it was there, and it sounds like others have as well.

My current perception is that NatAmi is intended to be a closed source commercial offering to the public with the understanding that it is a niche hobby group that it would be sold to.

Is this a correct perception?  Making this clear to us would help with managing those hopes and preventing them from being excessivley high, as well as possibly correcting some negative perceptions of the project.

[SamuraiCrow]

@Belial6

Your perception is correct.  We intend to sell it and keep the source closed.

The problem with the Replay is that it uses a smaller FPGA and therefore won't get the performance of the N68050 or the extension of it, the N68070.  The CPU softcore used by the Replay MiniMig core hardly has any cache at all.

Natami is designed for efficient use of a medium-sized FPGA.  It will have a bigger cache on the CPU core and the ability to combine opcodes such that certain combinations of two opcodes will execute in one clock cycle.

Stay tuned.

[orb85750]

Which is why I say that the biggest challenge for Natami is to get released before it becomes irrelevant.  

SAGA irrelevant on what date?

[Heiroglyph]

@Belial6

Your perception is correct.  We intend to sell it and keep the source closed

Can I beg in advance that when you guys cease to sell/support the product and derivatives, you consider releasing the information?

At that point the info won't be harming your sales.

There are always people looking for CSPPC pinouts, PAL equations, wanting to patch drivers, etc.  It would be a very nice gesture and give Natami owners a much better experience long term.

[SamuraiCrow]

The hardware-banging functions of the Natami should be well documented by the time of release so updating drivers from the AROS 68k sources should be a simple matter.  At first we'll be using AfaOS though.

[the_leander]

Before I go on, you do realize that "blitting" is basically just moving memory, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_blit

And before you continue, you do realise that unless you back up your claims with evidence, they will viewed with suspicion by anyone else, right?

Now what is the memory transfer rate of an unexpanded Amiga 500?  Let's see if you know how to do your homework?

I don't give a crap about the A500's memory transfer rate. I am asking yet again for you to back up your specific claims regarding the Natami.

Can you show that the blitter is capable of anything like the 100x increase you claimed earlier? (Hell even being able to show it works at all would be a start).

however your thought process seems broken.

Expecting proof for technical claims = broken thought process. Only Amiga makes it possible.

The developer has announce boards are almost ready for production.

On schedule and rocking eh?

It sad that someone make a statement on this forum.  Someone else is then in disbelief and demands proof despite have no basis for such a demand nor even has a right to make any demands what so ever.

So no one has the right to challenge your claims? Epic!

Wouldn't it be simpler to come up with evidence to the contrary on your own rather than troll out demands that carry no weight other than in your own little black book?

It is not my job to disprove your claims, it is yours to back them up with evidence. Only a fundie or someone with a similar level of intellectual dishonesty would claim otherwise.

Then again I am talking to gamecube boy, so I shouldn't really expect anything better.

[the_leander]

First off, as a member of the Natami team it would be unprofessional of me to allow hopes to get excessively high.  Without a prototype to test on we can't do much profiling.

I'd like to thank you for your candor in this matter, as well as your professionalism with regards discussing something that I'm sure is extremely exciting to be a part of. It's refreshing to see this much honesty.

Secondly, we can test the VHDL code with a simulator so it looks like the N68050 is right on track to be clocked at 133 MHz and to be able to combine instruction sequences internally for one instruction cycle-per-clock execution for most instructions.

What sort of compatibility are you looking at? (on par with an 040, for instance)

Also, I've mentioned in a previous post that the Natami LX was a prototype and had some performance lapses in it preventing it from going to market.

Can I ask what sorts of issues cropped up?

[SamuraiCrow]

What sort of compatibility are you looking at? (on par with an 040, for instance)

Can I ask what sorts of issues cropped up?

We're aiming for '030 level compatibility.  The issues that cropped up are in this post.

[Karlos]

030 compatibility is no bad thing, especially if you are interested in backwards compatibility.

[Belial6]

Your perception is correct.  We intend to sell it and keep the source closed.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I think it will help bring expectations closer to reality.  (Obviously, this being an Amiga forum, expectations will never actually meet reality. )

The problem with the Replay is that it uses a smaller FPGA and therefore won't get the performance of the N68050 or the extension of it, the N68070.  The CPU softcore used by the Replay MiniMig core hardly has any cache at all.

Natami is designed for efficient use of a medium-sized FPGA.  It will have a bigger cache on the CPU core and the ability to combine opcodes such that certain combinations of two opcodes will execute in one clock cycle.

Stay tuned.

I wouldn't say that it is a "problem" with the Replay.  It is just that the Replay's target is less than the Natami's target.  I think the Replay will be a fine addition to the Amiga community.  If the Natami were released today, it met it's target and it was price comparable to the Replay, then THAT would be a problem for the Replay.  Just as the Replay is not a problem for the original MiniMig.  The original MiniMig has had a good run, i suspect the Replay will also.  At worst, it would need to change it's marketing message from being a MiniMig that can also run other cores to being a system for other cores that can also run a MiniMig core.

My point concerning the release of the Natami is that time marches on.  There is active development going on with new Amiga compatible and enhanced hardware.  Natami has a target that is beyond what is currently available.  If it is another three or four years before it is released, it may not be as powerful as what is available at that time.  I don't have information on when the Natami will hit the market.  I only have a healthy skepticism built from dozens of vaporware projects, and a few too good to be true projects that have actually come to fruition.

Will Natami be on the vaporware side, or the too good to be true?  Only time will tell.  Until either it's target is surpassed or it is released, it is in the same category as the Kickstart Replacement bounty was 6 months ago.

[Belial6]

030 compatibility is no bad thing, especially if you are interested in backwards compatibility.

How much 680x0 software is there that won't be compatible with the 030?  In my area, the release of the A600/AOS 2.0, with it's massive incompatibility with the A500 was the last nail in the coffin for the Amiga.  We never even saw A1200's in these parts.

If the 040/060 were just optimizations, and did not add new opcodes, or if the new opcodes were rarely or never used, then anything past the 030 computability would just be an interesting sidenote.

I guess the other question is, are their opcodes in the 68000 that the 68060 cannot run?

[Paulie85]

The natami is a hardware emulation of the amiga architecture? Does this mean it is not a "real" amiga?

[Darrin]

The hardware-banging functions of the Natami should be well documented by the time of release so updating drivers from the AROS 68k sources should be a simple matter.  At first we'll be using AfaOS though.

Cheers for the update.

Is there any chance that someone could do something with the NatAmi website and update that to show the current status?

[SamuraiCrow]

How much 680x0 software is there that won't be compatible with the 030?  In my area, the release of the A600/AOS 2.0, with it's massive incompatibility with the A500 was the last nail in the coffin for the Amiga.  We never even saw A1200's in these parts.

If the 040/060 were just optimizations, and did not add new opcodes, or if the new opcodes were rarely or never used, then anything past the 030 computability would just be an interesting sidenote.

I guess the other question is, are their opcodes in the 68000 that the 68060 cannot run?

You may need WHDLoad to get some games to work on the Natami.  What that program does is allows all of the games supported to run from a hard drive targetting an A1200 with an '030 accelerator and some Fast RAM.

The only code that the 68000 can run that the 68060 cannot is self-modifying code.  The N050 is not superscalar but gains its performance using another method so it should run 68000 code with greater compatibility than that of an '040 or '060.

It is also noteworthy that the '030 has all of the addressing modes and instructions of the '040 and '060 except the inline FPU opcodes.  There were actually opcodes and addressing modes left out of the '040 and '060 for performance reasons that are being added back into the N050.