Excitement about NatAmi

[Louis Dias]

I think Piru and myself are more accustomed to working in environments where there are deadlines and cost/benefit ratios.

Those devices on PCI vs. onboard wouldn't justify a redesign and massive delay in my working world.

A good shipping product is far better than perfect vaporware.  There is always a next version to add more features to if you handle the first one right.

Tinkering forever is exactly what seemed to have happened to the Boxer and gave the community nothing but dashed hopes, hence the analogy.

I've got nothing against Natami, I just hope they are professional enough to see the product through to completion rather than tinker for ten years with nothing to show for it. (closed source prototypes = nothing to show for it IMHO)

It's close source because it's going to be a commercial product.  I don't recall too many commercial companies just giving away all their technology.  I think we are lucky to see the development of the  C1+030 board to the LX+060 boards to the MX.

They've shown what they've shown to simply prove they are not vapor.  They have collected no money.  They owe no one anything.

When the product is done - judge it with your wallet.

However, if you or anyone else is so inclined, perhaps I should to join the team and start printing T-shirts...  $50 each ofcourse!

[kedawa]

This will bring the MiniMig up to parity with any hardware that Commodore released.

Sure, except for compatibility, which has always been a bit spotty since it is not a cycle exact replica of the original CPU and custom logic.

In what way would it create any issues for compatibility?  You pick the card you want to support, and you just don't support anything else.  I don't understand why the fact that you COULD support different cards would in any way make you feel like you MUST.

Why would you want to depend on a third party card that could disappear from the market at any time and leave you in the lurch?  There's almost no market for PCI USB cards to begin with, so what makes you think they'll even be produced in the future?

While it might limit options for different form factors, the reality is that there just are not that many different options.  The most obvious is the standard PC itx case.  Anything else would pretty much require a second run of modified boards anyway, and at that point, you could always build the PCI interface and network/USB directly on the board.  So, again, where is the problem with the initial run having the parts on PCI?

Use your imagination!  There are endless options for a single board solution.  Why not get it right the first time and produce an elegant design that can be refined in the future rather than reinvented?
I'd much rather have the team put their efforts into improving the FPGA core for all to enjoy rather than redesigning the board to integrate features that should have been there to start with.

[Louis Dias]

I would like to point you to the MiniMig, WinUAE, MorphOS, AROS, AmigaOS4, the slew of products from Individual Computers (although they have had a few bombs), the iMica, etc., etc., etc..

The Amiga landscape was really ugly for a long time, but the last few years have been a consistent stream of exciting new products actually released, and it keeps getting better every day.

The biggest challenge I see for NatAmi at this point is finishing the project, and getting it out there before the MiniMig line surpasses it.  With the first generation of the MiniMig platform released, and in wide use, we are now weeks away from having the second generation of MiniMig released in the form of the Replay boards.  This will bring the MiniMig up to parity with any hardware that Commodore released.

While NatAmi aims to be better than what Commodore released, they do need to get it finished soon, as we don't know what level the Replay boards will achieve when they hit the wild, and no doubt there will eventually be someone that moves forward with a third generation of MiniMigs that will surpass the NatAmi target.

If you look at the memory thruput of the various boards you'll see that they are all in currently different classes...
- Minimig uses SDRAM, small fpga;  performance limited to an '020 with no AGA
- I believe MikeJ's board evolved to DDR1, medium fpga; performance is like an '040 with enough space for AGA and super hi res modes
- NATAMI is DDR2 in burst mode 100% of the time with a larger and faster fpga, 100x blitter speed, 100MHz 060 minimum, room for extra chips/cores to add 3D processing; overall system power between a PS1 and a PS2...itching closer to PS2.

So you'll excuse NATAMI development if it takes marginally longer than the others...

The Minimig does not need to change as it's goal was to be an A500 and it has succeeded in that admirably.

MikeJ's goals have also been met as his board will emulate all classic Arcade cabinets.  He really doesn't have much incentive to make it faster other than if he can lower his costs along with it.

Natami is being developed with the future in mind, not a simple emulation of the past.

[the_leander]

- NATAMI is DDR2 in burst mode 100% of the time with a larger and faster fpga, 100x blitter speed,

I hope you're going to back this and the rest of your figures with some benchmarks, right? Because as it stands this is purely theoretical. And of course this hangs on the presumption that the emulation is up to snuff.

And no "my friend the developer close to the project" doesn't count as evidence.

 100MHz 060 minimum,

Hahahahaha. Good luck sourcing many of those at anything like a reasonable cost. Hell you could probably buy an ARM A8 and emulate 68k faster for significantly less.

 room for extra chips/cores to add 3D processing; overall system power between a PS1 and a PS2...itching closer to PS2.

Citation needed.

Natami is being developed with the future in mind, not a simple emulation of the past.

You are Theirry and I claim my 5 pounds.

[SamuraiCrow]

Hahahahaha. Good luck sourcing many of those at anything like a reasonable cost. Hell you could probably buy an ARM A8 and emulate 68k faster for significantly less.

Actually the '060 card is 99 MHz.  It's the N68050 softcore that is in the 100+ MHz range.  With opcode fusion any pair of opcodes that can be simplified into a 3 operand instruction will be fused as one opcode internally.  This means that the '050 will compete well per clock vs. an '060.  (Note:  Since the LX board's FPGA was too small to hold both the '050 core and SuperAGA, the MX board prototype will have to be produced before the profiling and testing of the '050 core will be complete.)

Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes.  By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.

BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.

For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg

[Heiroglyph]

It's close source because it's going to be a commercial product.  I don't recall too many commercial companies just giving away all their technology.  

Are they commercial or is it a hobby?  It seems to take which ever form is the easiest for the current point.

I don't think this market is big enough for completely closed hardware.

The barriers to production are high enough to prevent large scale copying, there aren't enough players for it to matter.

The downside is that you get products like Prometheus that have died off and left us with bugs (dma) that could be fixed except for the fact that the source isn't available.

I think we are lucky to see the development of the  C1+030 board to the LX+060 boards to the MX.

They've shown what they've shown to simply prove they are not vapor.

If they aren't for sale, then they are by definition vapor and no more than an interesting personal project.

They have collected no money.  They owe no one anything.

When the product is done - judge it with your wallet.

I didn't say they were trying to rip us off.  I'll be glad to buy one if it's available.

However, if you or anyone else is so inclined, perhaps I should to join the team and start printing T-shirts...  $50 each ofcourse!

If it was open source and money was needed, I'd be glad to help.

If it's commercial, then it's up to them to come up with capital, perhaps by selling an existing product to help fund further development.

That was my original point, offering constructive criticism in case they have no experience in managing a commercial project.

[Louis Dias]

I hope you're going to back this and the rest of your figures with some benchmarks, right? Because as it stands this is purely theoretical. And of course this hangs on the presumption that the emulation is up to snuff.

And no "my friend the developer close to the project" doesn't count as evidence.

It's simple math.  with a 3.67Mhz clock and 16 bit bus, how fast does a real Amiga move RAM?  Now figure the speed of DDR2 which in burst moves what 8 bytes at once and there is cache to throttle it as well.  Infact, for A500 games compatibility there will be a 3.67Mhz mode...

Hahahahaha. Good luck sourcing many of those at anything like a reasonable cost. Hell you could probably buy an ARM A8 and emulate 68k faster for significantly less.

No one claimed '060's were cheap nor that NATAMI will be cheap.  Read the faq
http://www.natami.net/qa.htm

Citation needed.

You are Theirry and I claim my 5 pounds.

The ReplayArcade board, IIRC, does not even use burst mode of DDR1 and it's achieving '040-like results.

If you watch the LX video, you will see it load and decompress a large 24bit jpeg in real time...using an '060 in seconds.

If I was in on the bet, you'd owe me money...

[Louis Dias]

Actually the '060 card is 99 MHz.  It's the N68050 softcore that is in the 100+ MHz range.  With opcode fusion any pair of opcodes that can be simplified into a 3 operand instruction will be fused as one opcode internally.  This means that the '050 will compete well per clock vs. an '060.  (Note:  Since the LX board's FPGA was too small to hold both the '050 core and SuperAGA, the MX board prototype will have to be produced before the profiling and testing of the '050 core will be complete.)

Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes.  By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.

BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.

For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg

Amazing what some die-shrinks over the years have done for the old girl. :-)

[Crom00]

What a great arguement to have... we have two cool projects to look foward to each one cooler in various ways.
I believe the FPGA route is the best way foward... and just think... Jens was working on one of these FPGA projects too in his clone A... could it be that the 030 CPU cards, Indivisions, and such are all pieces of a greater puzzle...? Precursors to the holy grail of Amiga KIT... a cycle exact Amiga clone.

I hope so...

[Heiroglyph]

and just think... Jens was working on one of these FPGA projects too in his clone A... could it be that the 030 CPU cards, Indivisions, and such are all pieces of a greater puzzle...?

I think he said that the Indivision was a direct consequence of Clone-A development.

Like I was suggesting earlier, sell something that is currently working to fund further development.  The community gets great hardware and he makes money along the way.  We're even happily paying for the same R&D twice!

Precursors to the holy grail of Amiga KIT... a cycle exact Amiga clone.

I hope so...

I think the Mini-Migs fill the cycle exact niche and real 68k or 020 Amigas are easy to find.

Someone needs to fill the 060 and higher market.

Hopefully Natami will get there.

[vidarh]

Sure, except for compatibility, which has always been a bit spotty since it is not a cycle exact replica of the original CPU and custom logic.

For custom chips I can agree, but you do realize that the Minimig has an actual M68k CPU on it, right? It's not in the FPGA (though for the Replay board and the Natami, the CPU is in the FPGA)

[Franko]

Hmm... I don't see the point in all this speculation of what the Natami is going to be or which hardware architecture should be used. Whomever it is doing the development of this board has already decided that and is hopefully still working on it as we speak...

Reckon it's best just to wait and see what appears at then of the day and then either embrace it or criticise it...

[jj]

Think this line from the faq is quite ironic given the error in the text
 
 Allowing more people to verifying the SuperAGA chipset to be error free.

[the_leander]

Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes.  By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.

So what you're saying is, it's incomplete/unproven.

Right, that's all I needed to know. Get back to me when it's ready.

I don't listen to "maybes" any more.

BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.

UAE !=  just 68k emulation. Comparison fail sir. Emulating the AGA chipset is a very processor intensive operation.

For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg

And? Bernd Meyer of Amithlon fame was getting ~50% performance out of the 68k emulation he was using and by his own admission both the OS4 and MorphOS 68k emulations were far superior to his.

It's simple math.  with a 3.67Mhz clock and 16 bit bus, how fast does a real Amiga move RAM?  Now figure the speed of DDR2 which in burst moves what 8 bytes at once and there is cache to throttle it as well.  Infact, for A500 games compatibility there will be a 3.67Mhz mode...

I asked for a citation, ie, benchmarks. This isn't it. And given that none of this has actually been proven, it's all academic.

No one claimed '060's were cheap nor that NATAMI will be cheap.  Read the faq
http://www.natami.net/qa.htm

There is not cheap and holy shit that's pricey! There is a very real danger that if it is too expensive it'll price itself out of the market. See the reaction to the X1000 for details.

If I was in on the bet, you'd owe me money...

I'd owe you sweet FA chum.

[Karlos]

I don't want to piddle on anybody's cornflakes but a 133MHz 68060 CPU that has neither MMU or FPU doesn't excite me that much given that the E41J mask 68060's can easily achieve 100MHz (I've seen quotes of 120, even) and has both. Also, by the sounds of it, it's this 133MHz 68060FC part is as rare as rocking horse poo.

[Gulliver]

I am just wondering if this fpgaarcade/Minimig AGA device is going to drive the Natami to its knees and leave it in agony?
I am just seen it from a pure real, practical & economical point of view:

Fpgaarcade has already got production units
Cost is 200 euro (Later batches are announced to be at least 50 euro cheaper due to NRE)
It is open source
Does not require a real 68k in its design

On the other hand the Natami:
Is closed source
There are only few prototypes that dont fully work
Cost is near 700-1000 US$
Hasnt got implemented the so called new features yet

Please dont take this as bashing, it is just what I actually see.