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Author Topic: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?  (Read 13688 times)

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Offline MagicSN

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #44 from previous page: December 04, 2003, 02:25:43 PM »
SNAP contains only 2D Drivers. 3D Drivers are needed independently of it. The first "new" 3D Driver
will be for Radeon.

Steffen

 

Offline hairy

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2003, 02:31:20 PM »
Hello!

First, my hat off to you.

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EntilZha wrote:
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Yeah, that closed source, in-house developemnt only, non-standard low-level library,

You mean glide ? Or DirectX ? (SCNR)

Naah :-) The first is extint. DirectX... well place DirectX at north pole, the word "standard" will suddenly relocate at south pole :-D
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against OpenGL wrapped on something (Warp3D), it was just a bit of sarcasm about the Warp3D/Amithlon (both software renderer and Voodoo driver) licensing issues.
I understand your point, and you had any rights to deny distribution.
But, if you did so to avoid splitting the community (again no offence intended), sadly (or fortunately?) the effect on me (and maybe some others?) was that I suddenly jumped on the MorphOS train.

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Mesa is dead on Amiga, while it's alive and kicking on other systems.

Compare the perfomrmance of Linux and Windows on the same platform, with any official driver (nVidia or ATI).


I'm satisfied with DRI and nVidia drivers performance on Linux... more afraid to compare the best Amiga performance (Permedia2?) to the worst Linux x86 software renderer (given a decent processor) ;-)
Anyway at this stage I'm much more concerned (and dreamy) about some way to get a Makefile, wich works on BOTH Linux and Cygwin to compile on AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS, all without having to use such a blind violence to GLU tesselators :-D

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o see where the competition is going... light years ahead.

Nobody is denying that... but then, if you don't start, you never get anywhere... your stance seems to be to stick your head into the sand and surrender to "the evil empire" ?

Not at all! I think GL(+NOVA)+some HW drivers would be a HUGE milestone on the road to catch up.
I just want some people to get real, and realize that they're talking about "rendering" (e.g. how good Lightwave was, let's make a petition to have it again (!) etc.), while other platform are approaching same visual quality in realtime.


 

Offline lempkee

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2003, 02:47:17 PM »
Snap is 2D , Warp3d / NOVA is 3d.


anyway i am glad hyperion joined in here and i hope we will get some hints and tips :)

rouge/ent/steffen:  OpenGL is the super puper 3d api ? , hmm ok.. i fear it will take quite alot of time to make this uptodate with either nova or warpd3d , afaik nova is supposed to be warp3d v5 right ? or hmm someting like that ... Warp3d was Step 1 ( ogl 1.x and minigl ) and Step 2 would be nova...


hairy: as it was told earlier in this thread, Morphos doesnt have a 3d api incoroprated yet, just a few people has this, it will come later (maybe in the 1.5 upd when pegasos 2 comes , which should have come 2-3 months ago if you read some posts.. )
anyway morphos use TINYGL and RAVE.
Whats up with all the hate!
 

Offline lempkee

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2003, 02:51:18 PM »
oops i was abit too fast , i meant...

OpenGl is a big project and it will take time to make an amiga/ppc port of it...wont it? and then make it work as an w3d , OGL 1.x and miniGl is allready inside w3d but afaik 2.x is waaaaay bigeger and messy ...

(ie an example is directX grew over 100mb after they included this , but then again....i might be wrong as pc is like... C.R.A.P :D)

Whats up with all the hate!
 

Offline downix

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2003, 03:08:13 PM »
@lempkee

No, it was stated earlier that MorphOS *does* have 3D included, namely Rave3D and their Warp3D clone.

It also has 2 more higher-level 3D systems under development, TinyGL and JunGL.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2003, 04:51:22 PM »
@Downix:
I tried to compile some TinyGL examples with StormC but it wasn't compatible :-/

I thought it may be more interesting than MESA for 68k Amigas without 3D hardware...

Although my Voodoo3500 works quite well I'd like to see Radeon support in MOS soon

BTW "GOA", the W3D wrapper of MOS works quite well. :-)

@Downix:
have you tried to make StormMESA work? A friend of mine has some stuff written for basic OpenGL in windows and he would like to try it on his peggy with 3D acceleration.
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Offline downix

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2003, 05:08:12 PM »
@Crumb

I have never tried StormMESA in any way shape or form.  I could give it a shot tho, URL?
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Offline Crumb

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2003, 05:52:50 PM »
It's here: http://www.haage-partner.net/download/Amiga/3DWorld/StormMesa/
As it uses Warp3D as renderer it should work with GOA :-)
In case you wonder why I don't test it myself it's because I won't be able to touch my peggy until December the 12nd :_(
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Offline Crumb

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2003, 05:56:49 PM »
BTW have you seen the funky names the MOS team uses? "Trance" for the 68k JIT emu, "GOA" for the Warp3D wrapper, "JunGL" (jungle) for the OpenGL library... it seems they like techno... what's next... "Darkwave" or "electro"? :-D
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Offline sharpieTopic starter

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2003, 06:45:08 PM »
DirectX is a standard, despite the cries on this thread otherwise. It's a de facto standard, not an open one, the majority of games use DirectX as the renderer, or at least include a DX renderer in their engine.

Considering how much input Microsoft takes from game developers and IHVs on the future of DirectX (I know because I worked at MS for 5 years), its very representative of the positive sides of an open standard body like OpenGL, but without the incredibly tiresome waiting and waffling.

True that it benefits from a smaller niche, games only, where as OpenGL has a whole variety of industries to please, so it can be forgiven.

In any case, I could care less if Amiga had a DirectX or an OpenGL, or something new. What I care about is that there is some equivelent that lets me write shaders, preferably in a HLSL/Cg/Slang-eque language, which can compile down to the actual Vertex and Fragment program specs, and which otherwise take advantage of all the hardware features found in today's cards.

I understand the delay, and the need to complete the OS, but I don't understand the lack of a concrete vision and story for 3D on the Amiga. Saying that such and such API is possibly coming out, and not knowing what it actually is capable of and how it works, is not what I'm talking about.

At this point I would be happy with a gaurantee that such a featured API is coming out, from which point I could write an abstracted rendering interface in my game knowing that it could be easily ported/implemented later once more detail is available.
 

Offline sharpieTopic starter

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2003, 06:46:34 PM »
By the way, I didn't even imagine this thread would get this big. Obviously there are a lot of varying opinions and unknown details about this issue.

It will be interesting to see where this leads.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2003, 07:44:41 PM »
@sharpie

Direct X is a standard, but it is not an open one. There is obviously no chance it will be ported to AmigaOS4/MOS unless Microsoft wish it.

Anyhow, seeing as your existing project will be on hold until you get the 3D support you need, if you are as clued up on the whole shader issue as you seem to imply, why not do something about it?

Since nVidia are totally closed off to external 3D driver developers, you are left with ATI as your main vendor for 3D fragment shader technology available for Amiga right now.

You could get in touch with them and get an NDA and whatever else they may require covering the Radeon series and create a 3D API yourself. Model it on whatever existing shader language you prefer.

Nothing is stopping you.
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Offline Tomas

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2003, 08:08:32 PM »
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That is what I'm talking about. If Amiga wants to live in the past, by all means ignore advanced 3d hardware.

I think they are working on it... Just not possible to do everything at once.. the most important thing is to get the OS running on ppc, then later implement some decent 3d.
 

Offline ajk

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2003, 08:53:55 PM »
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I for one would rather have all printer/usb/etc stuff done before 3D things.

Yes, but luckiy, those aren't done by me :-D


Oh, well in that case you have my blessing on doing whatever 3D stuff you prefer :-D
 

Offline SHADES

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2003, 09:14:21 AM »
@lempkee
Yep, I agree, Wuake would look the same using the less complex 3D work,  but I did say latest 3D games.

I'm not too worried about not having the platform with the OS as of yet, I'm more worried about people that are promoting the product in a way that makes consumers feel as though it's not being developed by people who know what they are talking about.  It  just gives consumers lack of confidence in the platform. This man had no clues! He was trying to tell me the latest game would run just as well on a say a tnt2 card as they would on a ATI 9800 because the OS (OS4) was so small and efficent. He was using the multitasking cenero comparison in 1MB ram aMiga Vs the Microsoft IBM PC 16 Mb.

I was floored, that he would be recomending to people this type of hardware and that it would be enough for future gaming. Imagine, you want a gaming PC, you choose AMIGA, your told the 7500 is all you will need for games, you get the AMIGA vers of Doom3 or whatever and it fails.

This man is recomending to developers on what hardware should be included onto future revisions of the AMIGA mainboard, and apparently, some of his suggestions were acted apon. I was just really scared that somone who dosen't know what he is talking about is pusshing these points forward when consumers may not be aware how to vertx shaders are better than one. Just as an example. I wish I could remeber this burks name. Thing is, no one said anything, I should have, I was just confounded. I was waiting for the AMIGA OS dude to say something, like NOVA is on it's way and will support higher functions later on etc...  I mean even ATI won't stop at the 9800 series. 3D is going to go further and games will get more complex. I doubt too many people are going to be interested in a port of Quake whan others are playing Quake 8 or whatever it will be.

I should have said something. I wish I had.
It's not the question, that is the problem, it is the problem, that is the question.
 

Offline SHADES

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Re: How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2003, 09:27:18 AM »
@EntilZha

>>
Believe me, I share your concerns. And believe me, I don't share this opinion about the "uselessness" of powerful 3D hardware.

Development in that direction is on it's way, but I can't talk about this right now. If it works out, though, there'll be an optimal solution for the Amiga in terms of 3D graphics, at least for ATI cards, and maybe for others as well.


I'm so glad. We need people like yourself plugging the AMIGA product, people who do know what they are talking about. Not hacks!. If you had have been the person to have shown off the product and talked at the OS4 show, I'm sure a lot more people would have taken the whole show more seriously. I hope this bloke didn't give the same speach at Bris, Canb, Sydney as well.

Bad or incorrect marketing could seriously hurt the re-launch of AMIGA as a serious and viable solution. that's what really scared me, that and the fact this person was being taken seriously and responsible for showing and explaining the product! Oh and telling us he was in direct contact with people responsible for future H/W development. :-(

As for not being able to talk about the software development of future 3D platform,. I completly understand, and that's fine, the fact that there is this product under development/intergration is all that needs to be said really. This alone should be enough to sack this bloke, mind you he's from a non-profit organisation.  I'd like to see his ATI 7500 do the more advanced 3D abilities of the 9800. What a whacker, really bad news having him there without the correct info.
It's not the question, that is the problem, it is the problem, that is the question.