How to do 3D graphics development on the Amiga?

[odin]

What does the GL stand for anyway? :-)
Graphics Library?

[that_punk_guy]

Graphics Language?

Edit: Nope. :-D

I'm guessing you're right, odin.

[Karlos]

I've seen both Graphics Library and Graphics Language banded about in different literature. One thing I do know is that before it was OpenGL, it was IrisGL - my old chemistry dept. still had some ageing Silicon Graphics systems gathering dust in the corner of the theoretical chemistry labs last time I was there ;-)

[Karlos]

lempkee wrote:

for karlos and shaders: anyway integrating an os with an 3d api is the future?? , i dont see why this can be a problem if its added later when there is an OS , seriously warp3d is enough for now and later we will have NOVA which i am pretty sure will be integrated somewhat..

I wasn't disagreeing. Of course they can add it later in 4.x., and theres no reason that its functionality couldn't be used to bolster things like AG2 - but that is purely conjecture on my part.

AFAIK, Hyperion haven't stated for fact that Nova will be released or if an OpenGL2 implementation will be developed instead. My preference is for Nova with OGL2 built upon it.

Irrespective of the choice between Nova or OpenGL2, what does seem likely is that before that choice is made, interim versions of Warp3D 4 will be released that better suit the new OS4 Interface concept and add support for things like geometry acceleration (T&L) etc.

i know why hyperion is not working on nova, os4 gotta be finished first ..

Thats exactly what I said earlier...

you all have very good points here and i understand it, but i am a developer and i seriously dont see this as a problem atm.

Me neither. I used warp3d for lots ot stuff, not all of it for 3D either ;-)

[ajk]

Stuff like Quake 2 and games that use its engine already run fine on Classic Amigas, and will gain more speed on A1s.

The OS is definetly programmed with modern 3D support in mind, but there's only so much the programmers can do within a reasonable amount of time. It's better to release a version without (modern) 3D support than not release a version at all and wait for everything to be finished, no?

I for one would rather have all printer/usb/etc stuff done before 3D things.

[Karlos]

ajk wrote:

It's better to release a version without (modern) 3D support than not release a version at all and wait for everything to be finished, no?

I for one would rather have all printer/usb/etc stuff done before 3D things.

Couldn't agree more, really.

[Crumb]

@Karlos:

Irrespective of the choice between Nova or OpenGL2, what does seem likely is that before that choice is made, interim versions of Warp3D 4 will be released that better suit the new OS4 Interface concept and add support for things like geometry acceleration (T&L) etc.

If I remember correctly they may also add Antialias
to this Warp3D pre-NOVA version :-)

[hairy]

lempkee wrote:
ermm guys... EVER heard of "NOVA" ? .. hyperion will do this for os4 updates, ie after os4 is done ...

Yeah, that closed source, in-house developemnt only, non-standard low-level library, successor to Warp3D, wich suffered the same limitations.
With all deserved respect to the programmer skills obviously. I'm mostly questioning the distribution.
Also, the "as little as needed to run Quake" attitude, wich is perfectly ok from Hyperion point of view (MiniGL suit their needs), is not going to make that API broadly accepted for general purpose 3D use.

Mesa is dead hopefully and it has no future at all, currently for all mediator (p96) users or later cgx4 user will notice that mesa is struggling on their hw.

Mesa is dead on Amiga, while it's alive and kicking on other systems.

Not specifically to your post, I wonder why every time the discussion on the 3D subject is brought up, amigans relate it to rendering applications (a field where we have no longer any chance) or 3D games using custom engines (ditto). Quite a "retro" attitude, if you ask me.

We're just too busy on fighting on the speed of AGP busses (as if it could make ANY pratical difference) to see where the competition is going... light years ahead.

"super puper 3dapi"?!? have a look at this: http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/Publications/webgen///EGStar03/download//star03.pdf

Ciao
Alessandro

[benJamin]

I hope this isn't too obvious :-P ...

Hyperion, (re)developing an OS, after having worked on graphics stuff for MacOS X, IIRC, and made their fame by porting 3D PC games to the Amiga?

Whatever direction that they decide to take is, IMHO, going to be the optimum in the short term, and ultimate in the long term. ;-)

Also recall that graphics.library is still yet to be ported to PPC.  The reason it is such a big job is not merely supplementing the custom chip implementations from the 68k Amigas, but ensuring that everything and anything that becomes possible is easily integratable and can be made available when appropriate.

Since Hyperion's Amiga game ports appear to have stalled, I suppose that they will continue after OS4 starts recouping funds. These games will drive Hyperion's preferences for where to take the OS' graphics towards the future (possibly, maybe I really am an idiot...).

I heard somewhere's here about the possibility of an upcoming SDK containing a Cg (nVidia's "C for Graphics" [Processors]) [style|actual] compiler for Amiga OS.  If that were the case, I would personally consider building the abstract Amiga-side layers that your product will need to fit inside.  I start with a shell into which I can stick 2D graphics, then I write a program to describe those images.


A little aside...

Commercial companies upgrading from legacy hardware (read "Amiga Classic"), and those who supposedly are relying upon new Zico compatible hardware for Linux, I suppose, are to push the other areas of the new OS' capabilities.  I really think the finished MiniITX system will be the fresh cherry on this drying pie.  I expect people thought the A600 was purely to encourage C=64 users to upgrade, when it really was a nice sized mother board to stick under a monitor in a kiosk or slot=machine.


Anyway, that's probably too much for one post.  Thanx for reading thus far.


benJamin



"Damn, but did this take a long time to do on a PC from the same period as my Amiga beside it."

[Karlos]

Crumb wrote:
If I remember correctly they may also add Antialias
to this Warp3D pre-NOVA version :-)

Actually, theres actually nothing stopping antialiasing being used on existing v4.2 warp3d other than the fact that none of the currently supported chipsets seem to have it. Actually, I coudln't say for later voodoo chips ;-)
Anyway, as for antialiasing, the appropriate states and queries are defined in the API since v2 IIRC.

Hmmm. According to sect 2.1 of the  permedia2 programmers reference manual, it has 'full scene antialiasing', but I'm buggered if I can find it elsewhere in the documentation.

-edit-
@hairy

Yeah, that closed source, in-house developemnt only, non-standard low-level library, successor to Warp3D, wich suffered the same limitations.

So I take it you have read the Nova whitepaper and discussed it with Hyperion then? :roll:

[lempkee]

shades: yes i know what you mean , but in many ways he was right since when you now upgrade lets say from an voodoo to a radeon and play quake 1 GL, well it will be exactly the same wont it?

anyway we are walking in circles here it seems,my point is just that hyperion has talked about nova for some time now and they talked about os4 and eventually they will start on nova..

..

lets see what happens, i had expected someonmne from hyperion to join in this discussion but they havent....sort of weird

[Karlos]

lempkee wrote:
i had expected someonmne from hyperion to join in this discussion but they havent....sort of weird

Just extremely busy I suspect...

[Rogue]

Actually, theres actually nothing stopping antialiasing being used on existing v4.2 warp3d other than the fact that none of the currently supported chipsets seem to have it. Actually, I coudln't say for later voodoo chips

This is correct, although the latest Voodoo (VSA-100) does support FSAA. Theoretically it could be turned on, just use W3D_SetState(context, W3D_ANTI_FULLSCREEN), but no driver up to now supports it; there is no official support for Voodoo 5, although I have one in my classic and it works without problems.

Hmmm. According to sect 2.1 of the permedia2 programmers reference manual, it has 'full scene antialiasing', but I'm buggered if I can find it elsewhere in the documentation.

I seem to remember that Sam had this discussion with someone Permedia 2 guy that claimed there was anti-aliasing, but it more or less turned out that there was a windows driver for the card that simulated that. Needless to say the fill rate of the Permedia 2 is low enough to make such tricks work only on triangle-limited scenes...

[Karlos]

:lol: Rogue, you have an awesome sense of timing...

-edit-

I see its a genetic trait also ;-)

[EntilZha]

know AMIGA may not have a DirectX 3D type enviroment, but If a game uses the latest 3D and your card can't do it, well it won't look as good and will run slowere. No matter how efficant the OS is.

Believe me, I share your concerns. And believe me, I don't share this opinion about the "uselessness" of powerful 3D hardware.

Development in that direction is on it's way, but I can't talk about this right now. If it works out, though, there'll be an optimal solution for the Amiga in terms of 3D graphics, at least for ATI cards, and maybe for others as well.

[EntilZha]

It should be *part* of the OS.

Initially, this was the only part of the OS we would be doing, until fate (and other factors) decided otherwise ;-)