Roadshow for 68K -Needs your support!

[olsen]

I understand that what you're saying is that Amiga as a platform is only meant for developers, an not users.

I would not presume to be so pessimistic. My personal impression is that the number of people who make stuff in this community has dwindled so far that that the relation to the number of people who use the stuff has become unsound.

I'm a developer first and user second, so that may cloud my judgment in this matter, though.

People who for various reasons do not write software themselves should have no saying around here, right?

Now that sounds very pessimistic. Without the user, there is no real place for the developer either.

For one thing, a developer can't create magic in his backroom just for his own enjoyment forever. It has to get into the hands of people who put it to use. More importantly, without the user the developer is in a certain danger to produce something that isn't particularly useful or good.

It's quite like how I see the MorphOS situation; MorphOS is mostly about some developers doing an OS and software for themselves, and the rest of us are just a bunch of annoying whiners who at least should pay to compensate for all the unneeded noise we make.

Developers and users are by nature groups with little overlap. How each group member deals with the other group's members is something that comes down to social aptitude, or the lack of such graces. From my experience, the developer is more likely to offend the user than the other way round.

Who believes he does the dirty work of shaping the software? The developer thinks so, and may even suspect that the user isn't capable of it. Finding and fixing bugs certainly puts a lot of stress on the developer. But it's just as much the user who shapes the software by how he uses it, or fails to be able to use it properly, due to limitations of the design.

It's probably silly to say so, but developer and user are in complementary positions. It's poisonously easy to mislead oneself about this relationship.

[kolla]

I really don't get it...

Is it already really too much from Olaf to ask for a little donation for the time he spent implementing an TCP/IP stack?

No, ofcourse not, but it's a tad late to come dragging with this stack now, and many of us much more want to pay a large donation and get the sources too, that's all. It is either that or the old game of dealing with keyfiles, "how many machines am I allowed to use this on", various futile attempts at copy protections that many find of great joy in circumventing, binary patches to fix this and that.. all the nonsense that we have become used to.

Instead you could have a "here's my IP stack, here are the sources, here's the license and here's my paypal account - please donate if you find this usefull" - yeah, I know, way too boring, huh?

[kolla]

then you don't have a product, even if it has been open sourced.

And there is where you're flawed - thinking of software as products, that's just way old fashioned.

[olsen]

And there is where you're flawed - thinking of software as products, that's just way old fashioned.

That's where you make assumptions about why I used the term "product". In the dictionary definition of the term a product is eventually intended for sale. I used the term less precisely as the end result of the process which produced it. I could have used "outcome" instead, but it doesn't really fit the context.

If you have a better term for this thing, let's talk about it.

[olsen]

No, ofcourse not, but it's a tad late to come dragging with this stack now, and many of us much more want to pay a large donation and get the sources too, that's all. It is either that or the old game of dealing with keyfiles, "how many machines am I allowed to use this on", various futile attempts at copy protections that many find of great joy in circumventing, binary patches to fix this and that.. all the nonsense that we have become used to.

I don't have to play that game, and I do not intend to. No keyfiles, no copy protection. If there's going to be an impediment to using Roadshow, it will be in the demo version and nowhere else. I have been around long enough to know how this keyfile and copy protection business pans out. It's a fool's game, to use a more polite term for it.

Instead you could have a "here's my IP stack, here are the sources, here's the license and here's my paypal account - please donate if you find this usefull" - yeah, I know, way too boring, huh?

I cannot part with the source code, but the rest of the list sounds OK to me.

[kolla]

I would not presume to be so pessimistic. My personal impression is that the number of people who make stuff in this community has dwindled so far that that the relation to the number of people who use the stuff has become unsound.

This is just nonsense, first you're saying that you're not so pessimistic, and then you present an even more pessimistic view - seriouslly, if anyone's pessimistic here it is you, and not I  :lol:

For one thing, a developer can't create magic in his backroom just for his own enjoyment forever.

True, every now and then they leak out youtube videos, or display some "magic" on various meetings, mostly to stir up the community and create a lot of entertaining noise. I here of developers in our community, not developers in general.

More importantly, without the user the developer is in a certain danger to produce something that isn't particularly useful or good.

That's hardly a danger when you don't really give a rats ass about other users than yourself and maybe the small group of people you share code with.

Developers and users are by nature groups with little overlap.

Nonsense - all developers are also users.

From my experience, the developer is more likely to offend the user than the other way round.

Since the developer is more inclined to have something that the user wants, so the user retain him-/herself from being upfront with the developer. Also alot of developers are notorious for striking down on anyone who say anything against them - many of them seem to suffer from god syndrom.

There's lots of crap software around, and many developers are easily offended if you criticize their work, and they typically have a certain following of mostly ignorant groupies. For example, I have been quite critical about certain developments in both OS4 and MorphOS, since I think lots of the choices made there are just totally bogus and more or less destroy what I find cool about Amiga, turning the OSes more into flawed Windows wannabes than cool Amiga systems. So I'm officially a troll in both camps.

[olsen]

This is just nonsense, first you're saying that you're not so pessimistic, and then you present an even more pessimistic view - seriouslly, if anyone's pessimistic here it is you, and not I  :lol:

Don't try to undercut my pessimism. Just like everybody else I enjoy being miserable.

On a more pessimistic note, I entertain the idea that getting more people to produce software for the Amiga market will be beneficial for the community in general.

That's hardly a danger when you don't really give a rats ass about other users than yourself and maybe the small group of people you share code with.

If anybody claims to consider this a strategy worth following, it's only going to cause grief for him, and others. I can't see this working out any positive way at all. Why write software if you can get thoroughly drunk or high instead? There are shorter and narrower paths to debauchery or enlightenment.

Nonsense - all developers are also users.

So one set overlaps with itself. This isn't what I was saying: the number of producers is by its nature either smaller than the number of consumers, or equal to it. In the field of software it's likely much smaller than the number of consumers, i.e. users. This relation can be sound, or it can be unbalanced. I believe it is unbalanced in the Amiga community.

Since the developer is more inclined to have something that the user wants, so the user retain him-/herself from being upfront with the developer. Also alot of developers are notorious for striking down on anyone who say anything against them - many of them seem to suffer from god syndrom.

Occupational hazard. So what else is new? As I wrote, you don't have to play this game and you don't have to like it.

If you end up in a community where you are likely to be the target of ignorance, delusion and abuse, it's either a sign that the community needs to change, or to leave that community. Neither path may be easy.

There's lots of crap software around, and many developers are easily offended if you criticize their work, and they typically have a certain following of mostly ignorant groupies.

So? What responsibility do you have regarding what other people think? Holding a particular point of view is not an offensive tactic.

For example, I have been quite critical about certain developments in both OS4 and MorphOS, since I think lots of the choices made there are just totally bogus and more or less destroy what I find cool about Amiga, turning the OSes more into flawed Windows wannabes than cool Amiga systems.

Join the club. Change is not made without inconvenience, even from worse to better. Now what would be worse or better is a matter of opinion. The question is if you can make your voice heard and affect how the change plays out.

It's far from obvious how the current state of affairs in either camp will shape the development paths. I know, personally, that some of the choices I made for Roadshow did not work out so well, and the really bad thing (at least for me) is that finding an alternative is even more difficult to come up with than the original, (and in retrospect) flawed idea. You just can't predict all the outcomes and side-effects of any decision you make in software development. Your choices and your mistakes will catch up with you.

So we end up with things that don't match our intentions, even if we were not part of the decision making. Some of the decision making comes out of business practice, but in this Amiga business, a good part comes out of engineering. And engineering is susceptible to reason and reality. If you can make a case for what you feel is important, it's possible that it will have an effect in the engineering domain.

Of course, it helps if your creds include a bit of an engineering background. And if your input is not heard or heard, but ignored, it might not because your creds are considered to be lacking, it might just be insecurity on the part of the decision makers. Don't pity these guys, they have to make decisions in a high-risk environment. Making ever so slightly flawed decisions is part of the job.

How you deal with these conditions is up to you, of course. You can become bitter about it, you can consider this a reinforcement of your idea of being helpless, you can keep organizing your claim and ideas and keep trying. Just to name a few options.

So I'm officially a troll in both camps.

You're a troll as long as want to be a troll. Are you content being one?

[kolla]

You're a troll as long as want to be a troll. Are you content being one?

If by troll you mean someone who bothers to criticize the "progress" made in mentioned systems, then sure, I'm quite content. Hardly a day go by without me trolling.

Edit: So it seems my comment on amigans.net was out of line and I was edited out, luckily I have a screenshot of the post in question.

[warpdesign]

@Kolla: Problem is there's no real goal defined for both camps. So development just goes on, people follow a direction, then the other one,... You clearly have your vision, and maybe it's not what the developers have in mind. So when some decision is made you may not agree, so you critize, again, and again, and that's what they dislike. And then you're seen as a "troll".

Problems is communication is needed, but the developers, as you said, are mostly coding for themeselves, for their own pleasure,... following the direction they think is the good one.

[kolla]

@Kolla: Problem is there's no real goal defined for both camps. So development just goes on, people follow a direction, then the other one,...

Which is fine, if they were an open system like AROS for example, but they're not, they so desperatly try to delude themselves into thinking that they're doing it as a business, and they promote their stuff as if they have great plans and whatnot, when in reality it's all just futile attempts at smoke and mirror. And to top it off, they prevent anyone else from forking off by keeping their systems all locked and closed off.

You clearly have your vision, and maybe it's not what the developers have in mind.

And thanks to the political nonsense, people with slighly other vision than "the officials" will never bother to involve themselves either. This is one of the reasons so many developers have fled.

So when some decision is made you may not agree, so you critize, again, and again, and that's what they dislike. And then you're seen as a "troll".

And that's perfectly fine by me, it says more about them than about me.

Problems is communication is needed, but the developers, as you said, are mostly coding for themeselves, for their own pleasure,... following the direction they think is the good one.

I've noticed that the Friedens are getting fed up as well, with some luck OS4 is soon dead in water, and Hyperion launches some commercial desktop for Linux or whatever, as OS5, based on Qt it seems. And it too will fail, but who gives a damn...

[number6]

@olsen

Quite a volume of well thought out and well intentioned posts from this thread. I'll respond briefly, to save some white space...

A community contract I'm not so sure of. We have had organized goodwill operations in the Amiga community by the dozen, and where are we now?

(1)Initiatives made in public are often well intentioned, but often doomed from the start for the very reason you state in your posts concerning community reaction.
(2)You know as well as I that unless you do a significant amount of research ahead of time, you are apt to draw a short sighted conclusion about what direction to take.
(3)All of this takes us back to "business", something which -all things amiga- is not.

Anyone who has yet to realize that poor communications is apt to be the amiga legacy, just hasn't been very intimately involved with same. That much is certain.

Personally, I'd not start with something that lends itself to shaping into an organization that produces yet more words on the screen. It would help to know what the Amiga community would find helpful, if it were to materialize through the hard work of developers.

I see some of that happening right now with the MUI/zune initiative, although I regret it appeared in public quite the way it did, again...for those reasons you expressed about community response.

I feel that when people start to talk about "limited resources" and use the term "hobby" over and over again, to describe current affairs, the prophecy becomes self-fulfilling. More times than I can count I've posed the  notion that just because we are who we are should -not- preclude us from employing some businesslike thinking.

I'm not going to waste time detailing the failures of the past on this score.

#6

[ChrisH]

I have been quite critical about certain developments in both OS4 and MorphOS, ...  So I'm officially a troll in both camps.

I'd hate to break your martyr complex, but people don't get classed as trolls for being criticial - they get classed as trolls for being rude, obnoxious, inflamatory, and generally socially inept (intentionally or not)...  Which is a long way of saying if someone act's like a jerk then they'll get labelled as one.

It is of course possible to be criticial without being a jerk, although it does take more effort.

[ChrisH]

And to top it off, they prevent anyone else from forking off by keeping their systems all locked and closed off.

I thought you were against wasting of effort by having multiple Amiga-like systems?  Cos forking would make the situation worse, not better.

I've noticed that the Friedens are getting fed up as well, with some luck OS4 is soon dead in water, and Hyperion launches some commercial desktop for Linux or whatever, as OS5, based on Qt it seems. And it too will fail, but who gives a damn...

You come across as very bitter.  Has life been that bad to you?  (i.e. You can't build anything good yourself, so you try to destroy others' efforts instead?)

[kickstart]

No one can give their opinion at this times, just the support is the one and only valid answer, roadshow can be cool (in late 90s of course) maybe its more usefull a usable browser for 68k and FREE.

[omgas]

Hello, I am one of those too, who asked for a 68k release since
many moons. I feel having a tcp/ip stack available is mega
important, also for a niche retro platform like this.

Thanks to mechy for having stirred the interest. I hope that you
all get back on track, and help olsen getting his stack put
to good use on 68k systems.

@olsen

About the missing GUI, I would happily use the stack without,
provided basic documentation for the configuration files
is present. (I am sure they will be).

Regarding the distribution media, personally I would prefer
a download. However, with this method I can foresee some
users asking you for a re-download later on though.

As for the pricing, I am very flexible with important products
like this. I buy hardware without looking too much at the
price, deneb and zorram latest, and I believe I have an idea
of the amount of hours and work you put into this. I bought
AmiTcp and later MiamiDx, but I dont recall their price points.

Provided that NAT functionality is possible, 50 euro would
not make me think twice, but I agree with other post'ers, that
a low price certainly may invite to buy.

For the support load on the author, I would like to point to
the, in my view, back then, very well working solution which
the MiamiDx author used, the MiamiDx mailing list, where
users helped users. Perhaps this, the idea of users helping
users being the base support method, could possibly leave
you in a more relaxed position.

I still have a system running 24/7/365, with uptimes passing
the 200 days mark, and would still very much like to try
out Roadshow as the main router for my lan, for an
interesting comparison to MiamiDx in the same setup.

A side note; I feel you should have semi-included AmigaNOS
in your list of tcp/ip implementations, however I know
that it is mainly for radio amateur use and not for use
by the masses. I used it with an AX25 modem on my A1000,
and it was great fun improving functionality and make it
compile on latest sas/c version.


Best Regards

omgas





Oh My God, Another Stack

[olsen]

If by troll you mean someone who bothers to criticize the "progress" made in mentioned systems, then sure, I'm quite content. Hardly a day go by without me trolling.

Call me thick, but trolling usually involves baiting and watching for the resulting hullabaloo to tear a discussion apart. In its most benign form it can be a mild prank. At the other end of the spectrum it's a contagious he-said-she-said form of clusterbombing a community. Guaranteed to tarnish your karma if you follow it to the deep end.

For sure, criticism looks different. If you intend to make a point and be taken seriously, any form of pranks or trolling is guaranteed to undermine your credibility. Do it often enough and your chances become slimmer to ever become a contributing voice to the discussion. If what you really wanted was to make yourself heard, it will only become the more frustrating if you're being labeled a troll and get ignored. Don't mix your signals...