Roadshow for 68K -Needs your support!

[Piru]

Currently it is impossible get any TCP/IP stack for real Amigas unless you pirate Miami.

Actually that is not the case. GPL AmiTCP/IP is available (AmiTCP-bin-30b2.lha).

[kolla]

Currently it is impossible get any TCP/IP stack for real Amigas unless you pirate Miami.

Really? What, AmiTCP 2.3 suddenly no longer works? Or AmiTCP3.0beta2 or whatever it ended up on.

[LoadWB]

Building an '060 version probably doesn't hurt, though. If it's that what convinces the curious to become customers, who am I to doubt the wisdom in it?

Or you could just name a binary "roadshow-060" and pad it with a few bytes to fake some people out

The WHDLoad problem is interesting as well and, as Piru said, I recall the issue is a matter of interrupts.

My primary concern with a new TCP/IP stack is the ability to set up PPTP VPNs with encryption, and fairly easily.  I can do this with MiamiDX, but I cannot encrypt the tunnel and I cannot change target hosts very easily.

[Matt_H]

To add a few more facts to the mix: chances are that there will not be a GUI. In fact, it was tough to get a GUI made in the first place, and in the second and the third place, too. I tried three times to get this project off the ground and it was always the GUI development work which stalled it.

Instead of the GUI you'd be tinkering with configuration files, just like with AmiTCP in the old days. The difference this time being that Roadshow automatically rereads the config files after you have modified them. You won't have to restart the network just to make the changes stick.

As for documentation, I'd have to write a basic cookbook on how to set up and use Roadshow first. On top of that, there's always the SDK and the existing documentation for the individual shell commands and configuration files.

I have no idea what to do about the distribution yet. It could be a download from a web site, it could be mailed out on a CD-ROM. What would you prefer?

As for reasonable pricing, I haven't got the foggiest what a reasonable price would be. The nominal 10€ are at the lower edge of what I would consider reasonable. What amount would you consider reasonable?

Regarding GUI, is there a technical limitation preventing the back-porting of OS4's Internet prefs? Or were you thinking along the lines of something more work-intensive, like a full Genesis/Miami-style GUI?

I have always found your documentation to be absolutely excellent.

[SamuraiCrow]

Really? What, AmiTCP 2.3 suddenly no longer works? Or AmiTCP3.0beta2 or whatever it ended up on.

Genesis was pirated by H&P when AmigaOS 3.9 was produced.  Pirating AmiTCP is no better than pirating Miami.

[ncafferkey]

Genesis was pirated by H&P when AmigaOS 3.9 was produced.  Pirating AmiTCP is no better than pirating Miami.

AmiTCP versions prior to v4 were released under the GPL.

[itix]

@kolla & Piru

Really? What, AmiTCP 2.3 suddenly no longer works? Or AmiTCP3.0beta2 or whatever it ended up on.

Oh, forgot about AmiTCP 3. But aint it quite old (IIRC MOSNet is based on it but was improved?) and difficult to install? I remember I tried AmiTCP when I was newbie and couldnt get anywhere... luckily Miami was released only few weeks earlier.

[olsen]

The interrupts generated by the network hardware I believe.

In the mean time I learned a bit how this goes wrong. WHDLoad apparently has to shut down most of the operating system while it runs, and killing off the int2/int6 handlers won't be enough for some hardware that requires a handler to go after the cause of an interrupt signal. If that kind of handler doesn't get invoked, the interrupt sticks and the system will hang.

[olsen]

There have been cheap offers for amigaish programs lately, and when it's stayed around 10e, I've bought them even if I don't need it that much. I think it's a good tactic in today's situation.

That 10e, for example, is cheap enough to attract even occasional Amiga triers to buy the software instead of pirating or giving up. At least when it's easily available (web download, paypal). And also for long time Amiga hobbyists, who are thinking if it's worth to buy new software or stick with old options.

I don't think there are that much heavy users who are willing to pay tens of euros anymore. Low price and availablility would benefit whole Amiga community, and I believe author too, better than rarely bought expensive product.

I'm happy with AmiTCP/IP Genesis on my classic Amigas with my current usage, but if it will be around 10e I'll promise to buy it anyway

EDIT: same apply to CED too. I've been thinking of buying later version, but it's just too expensive in current form and situation (I bought CubicIDE when it was on <20e offer, but I'd rather use CED ).

I can see your point, and while I can see the sense in it, it leaves me, as an author, unsatisfied. Most of the fun to be had in writing software comes (at least for me) out of actually writing the code and building something useful. If I can convince somebody to give me something in return for the work I did, I would be happier than if I had just constructed something marvelous for my own enjoyment. And 10€ is a little too little for that. If I'm going to release Roadshow 68k, I believe that whoever paid for it is entitled to updates, bug fixes and support. This won't pay for itself. Same thing for CygnusEd, which I admit I have neglected for too long.

[olsen]

I really don't see the point, yet another utterly limited and primitive IP stack for Amiga, and also this time one is supposed to pay for it - why bother?

Edit: The only thing I'd be willing to pay for, is for the sources to be released under open source license.

I strongly refuse to pay for binaries when it comes to Amiga these days, not because I cannot afford it, but because I have experienced how painfull it is with these binaries after relatively short time, as authors abandon them.

It takes effort and some highly specialized knowledge to port an old TCP/IP stack to the Amiga and make it compatible with the AmiTCP V3 API. This can be done in less than a month, in two weeks even.

If you were to try, I daresay you'll spend a lot of time solving one of the major complicated puzzles practical software engineering can throw at you. This can be fun and rewarding all by itself, or at least that's how I felt about it.

Problem is, this isn't the kind of challenge that just about anybody meets gladly and is satisfied to have overcome. Some people want their work to be seen, acknowledged, and they want to assume responsibility for it. I'm one of these guys.

The point of discussing how and if Roadshow 68k might be released was to find out who would want to give me, author, something in return for the work I did, and how that "something" could look like.

I take it you are less interested in these aspects of the process, and, well, you don't have to be.

If there is a need for another free TCP/IP stack for the Amiga that does better than the old AmiTCP and Miami products do (in your words, is not another primitive TCP/IP stack for the Amiga), has a completely free and open source code, it seems that it has not been satisfied. It could be that the amount of magic & energy it takes to make one of these things is just not present in the Amiga community any more.

So the next best thing you could get is this non-free, closed source primitive TCP/IP stack I've failed to find a way to release for the 68k platform in almost ten years. It could be much worse: nobody could care any more.

[olsen]

Really? What, AmiTCP 2.3 suddenly no longer works? Or AmiTCP3.0beta2 or whatever it ended up on.

Sorry, AmiTCP 2.x barely works in the first place. AmiTCP V3 is hardly a feature complete package. It shows its age, and the knowledge required to make it work is beyond what most people would feel comfortable about. Try connecting to an ADSL modem using AmiTCP V3 without frustration pouring out of you.

There has to be a better way to do this.

[olsen]

Regarding GUI, is there a technical limitation preventing the back-porting of OS4's Internet prefs? Or were you thinking along the lines of something more work-intensive, like a full Genesis/Miami-style GUI?

I have always found your documentation to be absolutely excellent.

I do not own the rights to the OS4 internet prefs or the dialer GUI. This is the essential obstacle. Porting it may be possible, but the first stumbling block are the rights issue.

What I tried to make happen is to have a feature complete management and dialer GUI written for OS 3.x. This turned out to be too much of a challenge. Designing interactions is hard, and writing a set of programs around an interaction design is even harder on the Amiga. It still is today, it was ten years ago.

[Piru]

AmiTCP V3 is hardly a feature complete package. It shows its age, and the knowledge required to make it work is beyond what most people would feel comfortable about. Try connecting to an ADSL modem using AmiTCP V3 without frustration pouring out of you.

It is somewhat complicated, but luckily there's a great guide about it:

http://www.acc.umu.se/~patrikax/amiga/guides/AmiTCP_Install/

[kolla]

Try connecting to an ADSL modem using AmiTCP V3 without frustration pouring out of you.

Right... what's an ADSL modem again? It's like complaining about how much it sucks at ISDN, really.

There has to be a better way to do this.

Yes, join forces, put aside old difference and nickpickings, set up a working group for implementing an open and modern TCP stack for all Amiga plattforms.

Just to be blunt, how much would be enough for you to hand out Roadshow sources?

[olsen]

It is somewhat complicated, but luckily there's a great guide about it:

http://www.acc.umu.se/~patrikax/amiga/guides/AmiTCP_Install/

Now that's typical :-(  I wish I had know about this more than 10 years ago. I actually figured this out by myself, through trial & error, and while I learned something along the way, it was not a happy experience.

[buzz]

I would think the majority of people these days use an adsl router, so amitcp can do the job ok. Back when roadshow was first announced, I would have been interesting perhaps in purchasing it perhaps, although I did already buy miami (far too much money!).

If it was to become open source, then I would contribute to a fund for that though for example. This would guarantee availability for the future, and allow people to improve on it if they desire. Guess that's not possible contractually for you, but just to say where my feelings are.

Seems there are plenty who are interested though, so I hope it goes well.