Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs

[Trev]

Oh I forgot to mention... I have a legal document to prove I bought my car.
I can show anyone proof I own my car. No one has proven they own the roms.
No one. Show us the documents. That should settle this whole argument, and if you really did own the roms or rights to the roms, I would think you would certainly want to show that "title" to prevent any misunderstandings

Assuming all the legal bits were properly followed, you should have a document somewhere in your possession which states you do not own the software, you've only licensed it. Copy away, I say, but be prepared to face the consequences (not that there will ever be any).

[AmigaEd]

I'm no legal expert, but it seems to me that any company basing their ownership claims, licensing claims, and actions on an agreement with a company that no longer exists is most likely no longer valid. I believe that here in the U.S. an agreement between two business entities is considered dissolved when either one or both of the entities no longer exhibit their interest or no longer exist as companies.

Perhaps a bounty should be created to pay for a lawyer who in turn would file a petition on the behalf of the "Amiga Community" claiming rights to the ROMs. I'm sure the right lawyer could talk stuff like "in the best interest of humanity, infringement of rights, collusion, Eminent Domain, Magna Carta, Manifest Destiny, etc".

If it could be shown that the "Amiga Community" is a class (and i'm sure that it is in some way) then maybe this could done as a "Class Action" lawsuit. It seems like rulings in these types of cases almost always favor the class.

Maybe a ruling or agreement could be reached where all members of the class would receive two new ROMs or a CD-ROM with ROM files for every Amiga that they have. (As if that would ever happen, I'll bet no company would step up to claim ownership if they knew they might have to supply a bunch of ROM chips or CD-ROMS)

If nothing else, the whole issue could get tied up in the courts for years until all of the current entities claiming ownership fold up and disappear. This would leave ownership even more impossible to resolve, dispute or refute. I'm sure some more posers would show up to fill their shoes and to claim their non-existent rights.

[kolla]

Somebody owns the rights. It doesn't matter who it is. What matters is that you don't own the rights. When you can prove that you own the rights, you can distribute the ROM images any way you see fit.

So by this logic, one could ask Cloanto and whoever to prove their rights.

[LoadWB]

So by this logic, one could ask Cloanto and whoever to prove their rights.

See: SCO vs the world.  What a mess it would be.  From my understanding, the whole Amiga saga is so loose that I would wager very few could prove anything.

But AmigaEd inspires, if I say so myself, an interesting idea.  If the USPTO had a method for challenging claimed copyrights and trademarks.  Person X or Company Y claims copyright on Article Z, Person A or Company B challenges said claim, essentially a "show me the paperwork" demand.  This would be an offensive suit rather than defensive for violation.

I can see how this could easily be abused.  Say some Little Guy(tm) copyrights something, and Big Nasty Company(tm) challenges with the intent to bankrupt with legal fees.  It should be the onus of the loser to absorb legal costs, which I would think would squash some of the frivolous attacks.

[psxphill]

If nothing else, the whole issue could get tied up in the courts for years

I think you understimate the amount of money that you'll need to raise to achieve that.
 
There is no way that you'd get permission to launch a class action lawsuit either. I can't even work out what your lawsuit would be for & who it would be against.
 
The easy way to find who owns the rights would be to start advertising and selling minimig along with roms & hope that when/if someone comes along they don't sue you for more money than you made. Thats how big businesses do it.

[tone007]

Yes. You are absolutely right. The two cases are completely identical, and your statement is not a strawman at all.

Hurhur, strawman.  I'll make my analogies simpler to understand next time.  Just as haywirepc has a document to prove he owns his 1978 Ford Pinto, someone somewhere has a document saying they own the rights to the Amiga Kickstart.  Whether or not they care to hunt down and sue pirates is another matter.  Leaving up a website offering the software for download is a good way to find out if anyone cares.

Somebody owns the rights. It doesn't matter who it is. What matters is that you don't own the rights. When you can prove that you own the rights, you can distribute the ROM images any way you see fit.

+1

[AmigaEd]

I think you understimate the amount of money that you'll need to raise to achieve that.

No, I didn't underestimate anything. You will notice that I did not mention any monetary amount. I'm sure though that a lawyer could be found who would take this on for a reasonable amount of compensation. The reality is that in this case he would hardly even have to do anything. File a petition here or there, a deposition or two. Some tactical delaying actions in the court. Normal stuff really.
 

I can't even work out what your lawsuit would be for & who it would be against.

The lawsuit would be on the behalf of the "Amiga Community" or "Amiga Users" or Amiga Computer Users" or whatever the class would be called. The respondent would any party who claims to own rights to the ROMs. Be that, A Inc, Hyperion, Gateway, or whoever.

The whole beauty of this is that most likely none of them could demonstrate their definitive rights to the ROMs and that the whole thing could be mired in the court for years.
 

The easy way to find who owns the rights would be to start advertising and selling minimig along with roms & hope that when/if someone comes along they don't sue you for more money than you made. Thats how big businesses do it.

Clearly someone is going to come along. If you don't cave in early in their attack, their going to start some posturing and perhaps a filing with the court. You said earlier that I underestimated the amount of money needed to initiate a something like this. If that's true, I doubt that any of the companies involved have much money to launch any kind of a formidable attack. Heck, the way they do business they are certainly not making any money. Over the course of several years a bounty could be raised that could give them a challenge. We're clearly not talking about big business here, were talking about companies which may not even exist anymore, which never did, or which are barely eeking out an existence.

[dammy]

Best solution is to drop more money into the replacement kickstart bounty.  If there is a FOSS version of the kickstart, who needs to pirate AI's IP?

[kolla]

Lawyers are easier to find than programmers.

[orb85750]

"Leaving up a website offering the software for download is a good way to find out if anyone cares."

Who is going to do it?  Any serious volunteers?

[alexh]

Google and you can find everything in a few minutes. Not a problem.

Some of AmigaEd's stuff doesn't read as logical to me. Companies are born and die day in day out and their assets including their patents and copyrighted material belong to their creditors. Other companies cease trading and their copyrights are held by them until they expire even if they are no longer a registered company.

[Lockon_15]

An interesting point of view.
Just out of boredom...
Cloanto has no copyright, just rights for distribution, someone else have that rights correct ? If Cloanto had made a deal with any of still functioning "claimers" of Amiga Kickstart IPs, it might be only limited by a general patent/copyright expiraton. Anything beyond that is a bluff being possible because community is still trapped in 1994, with no clue what to expect from such a mess ? Seriuosly, I doubt, it's like beating a dead horse anyway, getting kickstarts in binary is no-sweat compared to making slaves for WHDLoad.

[haywirepc]

Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me. When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware. I'm very busy so this may take a few weeks even to get started, but I will make it happen.
 
If anyone has kickstart images or other files you feel would be good for this type of project, feel free to pm me.
 
Steven

[tone007]

Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me.

Insulted by the claim that you drive a Pinto? Why? I mean, sure, they're no AMC Pacer, but I think this is a pretty sweet ride. Heck of a lot more interesting than most of the cars on the road today.

When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware.

Not another one!

[orb85750]

Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me. When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware. I'm very busy so this may take a few weeks even to get started, but I will make it happen.
 
If anyone has kickstart images or other files you feel would be good for this type of project, feel free to pm me.
 
Steven

Sounds good.  If you do so, I would suggest stating clearly that you're offering such "orphaned" files for free download, and that anyone claiming ownership should send you proof of such ownership with their removal request.

[Belial6]

I don't know if you were joking about the Pacer, but I can definitly say that I loved my Pacer.  I always figured that it was modeled after the Pylons in Land of the Lost.  You know, bigger on the inside than it was on the outside.

As for your car analogy, yes, you may have a piece of paper that says you own it, but if you leave it sitting out on the street long enough with the vin filed off so that no one can identify that you own it, you will lose your ownership pretty quickly.