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Offline gertsy

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2010, 10:32:36 AM »
An Amiga's gotta know its limitations.. The upper boundary of those was ruled off in 1994.
Why try to prove something that has no worth.  Use your PC, Mac or Linux box for browsing and use your Amiga for what it's good at.: Being an Amiga.  That should be enough.

Unless of course you have a need to pit your stock Edsel in a current day Saloon car race.

You don't want it to be the same...trust me..  

Vive la difference.....!
 

Offline Amiga_Nut

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #105 on: August 13, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »
Quote from: Arkhan;574361
Win95 w/ IE works better than the Amiga in my experience.  *shrug*




And this comment is about as reliable as his one stating a 5bit 15khz sample chip produces better quality than an 8bit 48khz sample chip...........and then argue it on the basis of a CD-ROM mastered soundtrack using studio hardware not the actual soundchip  lol classic comments from little arkhan.
 
1 IE was always iffy as hell compared to the likes of Netscape at the time, which is what most people used simply because IE was really that slow and buggy and rendered pages incorrectly at that time. As any web designer knows, you finish your site, then modify it so IE can render it in an identical fashion to how it already renders ;)

2 Win95 had a notoriously famous world wide bug of a memory map as solid as a leaky old bucket when it comes to web browsing/emailing activities lol.

3 There's the Win95 GDI resource issue to compound that socket related leakage into oblivion problem with the effects of gradually losing GDI memory resource due to using graphically intense programs (for 1995 that is) like web browsers all day long. Result = crash city/loss of OS functionality = frequent reboots.

So it turns out you have no experience of how 'good' IE was originally in that time frame, and no awareness of two of the biggest reasons corporations found Win95 nothing but a toy OS for business applications lol surprise NOT.

Maybe it's time we ALL had a poll vote to decide if Arkhan should be banned, clearly the moderators here are going for quantity rather than quality as far as member numbers go on Amiga.org haha

As usual bullshit off-topic trolling has actually derailed an interesting thread, the simple facts are....

A1000 vs 8086/80186 PC XT etc  = slamdunk to A1000 on every possible aspect.
A1200/4000 vs 386SX/486DX ISA PC = grey area of swings and roundabouts.
£1500+ x1000 vs i7 latest gen PC = I think even here we've all seen how that went lol

Comparing today's PCs with souped up A1200/A4000s is about as useful as comparing an IBM XT with 128k ram and Hercules graphics card and PC speaker audio to a 512k A1000.

Now had you pointed out that something like an A500/2000 etc didn't have a serial port capable of utilising a 33.6/56k modem unlike your average early 90s PC.............

(above 3 examples compared on like for like timescales, PC OS = DOS+Windows of the time and price is similar for both items)
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2010, 11:22:34 AM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;574591

Now had you pointed out that something like an A500/2000 etc didn't have a serial port capable of utilising a 33.6/56k modem unlike your average early 90s PC.............


but you could get them easily enough as add-ons for zorro, clock port etc..not sure about the A500 though..
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2010, 11:31:36 AM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;574591

Now had you pointed out that something like an A500/2000 etc didn't have a serial port capable of utilising a 33.6/56k modem unlike your average early 90s PC.............


Huh? 56k maybe - I never tried. But I ran a BBS off my A500 with a 33.6 modem, and did extensive downloads with the same modem. All at full speed with no problems.

I may have used an optimized serial port driver, I remember messing around with serial drivers a bit, but it certainly worked.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2010, 12:04:59 PM »
@Leander
Dare I ask _why_ you used IE4, a program released in late 1997, on a 486 running Windows 3.11?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #109 on: August 13, 2010, 12:50:43 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;574588
Be that as it may, I was viewing this site's pages under a different user name from about 1998.  I never experienced this event that you and Leander describe.  NEVER.  Sounds like the lack the of protected memory argument: yeah you could crash your amiga, yeah you could lose data, yet gigabytes of software, pics, songs were created by users anyway.


The experience I described was of system slowness, not of system instability. My old 040 machine was unstable for a number of reasons but not because of web browsers using too much memory.

As for the protected memory issue, well, over the years, I had applications crash my entire machine many more times than I care to remember. It's just something you learn to live with, until you get used to a system that doesn't require a reboot because something has corrupted Exec's free memory list resulting in amber alerts every time an application calls AllocMem() of FreeMem() or trashes some other resource that ultimately causes a crash or freeze.

You can keep saying "never" in your experience, but obviously you are exceptionally lucky. I don't know any other users that have "never" experienced any of these problems.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2010, 01:12:15 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;574557
Bullshit.


Systems in question were as follows:

A1200 040@28, 8Meg ram (later upgraded to 32Meg ram - the 8Meg stick then went into a CD32) AGA.

OS3.5, using a mix of Aweb, Ibrowse 2.2 (later 2.3) and Voyager 3.3 (beta)

The PC was a no name box I was given because it would otherwise have gone to the dump.

It ran Windows 3.11, had 8 Meg of ram and used IE4 (later upgraded to 16Mb of ram and IE5)

IE4 was more standards compliant than any Amiga browser up until the release of the webkit browsers for Amiga.

IE5 was so far ahead of the game that it got to the stage that I would only browse the web on the Amiga using shapeshifter running MacOS 7.1 with IE5 installed. There was absolutely nothing on the Amiga that could match it for compatibility on the web.

Read that again: I could emulate a Mac on my Amiga and get better, faster, more compatible results than I could natively.

I also met a couple of people who actually purposefully built 3.11 boxes with similar specs for the sole purpose of testing netgoing capability. Sorry to say that the Amiga failed both in terms of cost and ease of getting the software going.

Quote
Or Product B gets the sale because Manager Z read an article, written by a journalist instead of a technician, in a magazine and decided Product B would be better because everybody else uses it.


Problem is, that Product B is the Amiga. To get even a fraction of the capabilities of even a entry level PC one must prat around with hacked up DSP cards that go on the clockport or if the zorro route hunt down near non existent stocks, mess around with AHI, upgrade the hell out of the cpu slot, oh and likely pay more for just the Amiga soundcard than that low end PC in its entirety.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2010, 01:29:37 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;574576

Eventually i went to the A4000/68060/CV64 running Ibrowse 2, on dial up till 2007 or so, and never experienced this BULLSHIT about worrying if the next web page would crash the system!


Try it with only 8Meg of ram and watch your system scream.

Bonus points if you dare to try it on an 020 with 8megs of fast ram. (Yes, I did get that CD32 online on a couple of occasions when the 1200 was being reinstalled.)

Sure, 32Meg helped no end, but then again 16 meg on the PC did much the same, with the added benefit of being able to use a swapfile.

But as Karlos says, even with 32Meg under the keyboard, a heavy website would bring the Amiga to its knees with a native browser. IE5 on the same hardware under emulation suffered far less slowdown and got me a whole hell of a lot further

Quote from: stefcep2;574576

With some of posts some "Amigans" here make,


I'm not an Amigan. Never have been, never will be.

Quote from: stefcep2;574576

you'd think their machines did nothing but crashed at the first single mouse pointer movement after booting.


Never said that, so great strawman.

Quote from: stefcep2;574576

 All the software on aminet must have been created with amiga's in an alternate reality, as according to Leander, the Amiga was one useless, perpetually crashing mess.  For him NOTHING worked.


Never said that either, but hey why let piddling little things like facts get in the way of a logical fallacy...

What I said was, as far as the net went, the Classic Amiga blows chunks. It simply wasn't up to the task without hideously expensive upgrades to the hardware. And even then you were better off emulating MacOS to use a web browser on account of the fact that ALL Amiga web browsers pre the new webkit ones sucked.

They did. They still do.

Amigas were leagues ahead in some areas. But the Net was imho its single greatest weakness compared to other platforms. Even when comparing like for like.

Quote from: stefcep2;574588

No issue with people buying whatever meets their needs.  Its the incessant revisionist negativity that is tiresome.


There is nothing revisionist about it. That you have never ever once had any issue whatsoever with an Amiga is not my concern.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2010, 01:34:48 PM »
Quote from: kolla;574596
@Leander
Dare I ask _why_ you used IE4, a program released in late 1997, on a 486 running Windows 3.11?


For much the same reason I used an Amiga daily until around 2004 - because I could. The hardware was free and so was the software.

Imagine my surprise then, when IE4 outperformed Amiga native browsers on just about every level.

Finding IE5 for Win3.11 was an absolute pain. But with 16Meg installed it absolutely flew - indeed it was the performance of this box that convinced me to setup sheepshaver and run MacOS emulated so I didn't have to keep swapping machines. It was still slower than the PC due to the PC having a better graphics card, but it was a whole hell of a lot faster and more capable than Amiga native.

Fun times. Great experiments.

It's conversations like these that make me realise just how much I've forgotten over the years.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2010, 01:40:33 PM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;574591

Maybe it's time we ALL had a poll vote to decide if Arkhan should be banned, clearly the moderators here are going for quantity rather than quality as far as member numbers go on Amiga.org haha


Coming from Mr Signal Bounce himself, bitching about others spamming comes off as more than a little hypocritical. Same goes for complaining about others posting a lot.

Given the drubbing you faced the last time you brought up your lunacy about doing away with APIs, I would have thought you might have sat down and evaluated your position.

Sadly (but not entirely surprisingly) you haven't.

I would recommend you go back to sitting on your joystick until you do personally.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:44:59 PM by the_leander »
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Offline Franko

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2010, 02:00:09 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;574604
I'm not an Amigan. Never have been, never will be.


the_leander... don't know if i've picked you up wrong, but if your statement 'I'm not an Amigan. Never have been, never will be.' is true, then what on earth are you wasting your time for posting biased opinions on an AMIGA forum ! :rolleyes:

It's quite clear from the posts in this thread that it's just going round in circles with the, my pc is better than the amiga or my amiga is better than the pc nonsense.

We should all just agree that you use the machine that you do, because it suits your needs and your either happy or unhappy with it and stop this never ending mine's is better than yours crap and cramming as many quotes into a post as you possibly can. :(

Use a PC/MAC for what it does best, accessing the internet and erm... (well that about it)

And use an Amiga for what it does best, creativity, fun, enjoyment and almost every other computing need you may have (except for using the internet)... :)
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2010, 02:03:25 PM »
Quote from: DavidF215;574564
Or Product B gets the sale because Manager Z read an article, written by a journalist instead of a technician, in a magazine and decided Product B would be better because everybody else uses it.


The problem there was that she denounced amiga because of her needs and going by some specialized non-standard audio card; if you allow for hardware add-ons, you could have gotten 20 bits DAC/ADC audio card for Amiga in 1990s as well:

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=soundstage&company=
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2010, 02:10:16 PM »
Quote from: DavidF215;574563
I have noticed that rabbit chasing occurs frequently around here. As amigasi mentioned, the Natami project desires to simply upgrade the Amiga chipset hardware and keep going.

PCI express would probably be the better starting point as AGP is old school now. ARM is a possible contender, and there is a rumor that AmigaOS4 will be ported to it.

Amiga needs more software now than anything else.

Need some popcorn reading about the API vs. direct access discussion. Would an API that maintains an optimized, hardware banging code base adequately satisfy?


Problem with API is not only efficiency of code and speed, but also that it's restrictive and inexact.  For example, on standard VGA you can write to an I/O port to do hscroll, vscroll, and line replication (all via hardware).  You can do similar on Amiga (of course).  Now, when nonstandard VGA cards took over many didn't even support these three features for the better graphics modes so even if you had an API that does hscroll, vscroll, and line replication-- the ones that don't support it will be emulating it via copying buffers and slower means.  And then add to that trouble, suppose you wanted to read in user input during VBI and do the hscroll/vscroll at that time, you are in some trouble.  So if you program for worst case scenario, you would avoid doing it in VBI.
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Offline Godspeed-88

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2010, 02:17:59 PM »
I belive Amiga has a soul.  

I have unending love towards Amiga.

PC lost its soul long time ago :smack:
Every forum needs one newbie:hat:
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2010, 02:22:46 PM »
Quote from: Franko;574607
the_leander... don't know if i've picked you up wrong, but if your statement 'I'm not an Amigan. Never have been, never will be.' is true, then what on earth are you wasting your time for posting biased opinions on an AMIGA forum ! :rolleyes:


I'm guessing "Amigan" has very different connotations for us.

I'm a long time Amiga User. Currently my Amiga of choice is UAE. In the future it may well be a minimigAGA. I post here because I have a good few (IRL and online) friends who share similar interests to me.

An Amigan to me is simply another name for BAF. The term first started becoming fashionable around the time of the exodus.

Other synonyms include: Chump, sucker, retard, fraudster worshipper, cultie.
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Offline Arkhan

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #119 from previous page: August 13, 2010, 02:36:43 PM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;574591
And this comment is about as reliable as his one stating a 5bit 15khz sample chip produces better quality than an 8bit 48khz sample chip...........and then argue it on the basis of a CD-ROM mastered soundtrack using studio hardware not the actual soundchip  lol classic comments from little arkhan.
Wow, you're still gripping onto that whole argument that you barely understood at the time?

I argued the PCE soundchip and the PCE CD audio as two separate points.   It's not a sampling chip.  It's a WSG.  It just happens to be able to sample on each channel also (6 channels!).  The CD audio argument is that it surpasses everything since it can have music made up of sound from whatever in the piss you want.  Studio mastered audio on a CD based game is going to beat the piss out of any sound chip. Mix Amiga, Atari, a kazoo, and a friggin roland from 2010.  Who cares.  It can do it all.  You do know what a CD is right? It's those shiny discs you stare at and drool as the light reflects off the bottoms?

I also never said it's (the WSG) is better quality.  I said it sounds better and works better for games.  There is a reason why arcade machines used FM/PSG/WSG instead of sampling a majority of the time.   It fits and is much smoother for the type of game in question.  Kind of like how if you were to have a live band for the soundtrack of a NES game.... it wouldn't fit at all.  Having the music and sfx blend properly is very important in games.

I know you're sort of dopey and don't really get it so I will just leave it at that.
 
Quote
1 IE was always iffy as hell compared to the likes of Netscape at the time, which is what most people used simply because IE was really that slow and buggy and rendered pages incorrectly at that time. As any web designer knows, you finish your site, then modify it so IE can render it in an identical fashion to how it already renders ;)
Thats nice.  Doesn't change the fact that iBrowse loads pages up kind of slow and jerky, and a comparable win95 machine doesn't have the same dilemma.  

Also, now that you mention it, Netscape works better too.  Thats two browsers.  

Quote
2 Win95 had a notoriously famous world wide bug of a memory map as solid as a leaky old bucket when it comes to web browsing/emailing activities lol.
man, nothing gets past the AMIGA_NUT.

Quote
3 There's the Win95 GDI resource issue to compound that socket related leakage into oblivion problem with the effects of gradually losing GDI memory resource due to using graphically intense programs (for 1995 that is) like web browsers all day long. Result = crash city/loss of OS functionality = frequent reboots.
Hmm.  Don't recall that problem.  then again I was like 9 at the time.  My computer didn't crash alot back then, and doesn't now.  

It only crashed when we got AOL.  

Quote
So it turns out you have no experience of how 'good' IE was originally in that time frame, and no awareness of two of the biggest reasons corporations found Win95 nothing but a toy OS for business applications lol surprise NOT.
Yet Win95 and then 98, and beyond, are what most corporations used and still use.  Maybe you have no experience with what the real world is doing past 1993.

Quote
Maybe it's time we ALL had a poll vote to decide if Arkhan should be banned, clearly the moderators here are going for quantity rather than quality as far as member numbers go on Amiga.org haha
Big words from the flid whose opening argument here was a direct attack, and who bounces from computer scene to computer scene being fanboy of said computer until he's gone so r-tard that he has to leave.  Your problem is you have tunnel vision love for the computer the forum you are currently hamfisting on is about.  You can't see past it being the best thing since sliced bread because you just want approval.

Quote
As usual bullshit off-topic trolling has actually derailed an interesting thread, the simple facts are....
Dumbass, go read the title of the thread.  In fact, here let me help you since you will probably go ADD on the way to reading it and start spewing more idiocy:
 AMIGA vs PC.  

I don't see how discussing the pros/cons of a PC is off topic in a thread where PC IS IN THE FRIGGING TITLE.    As usual, hamfisted fliddery has made you look like the forum tard. You know, sort of like your opening comment in this post.  What is on topic about insulting me and bringing up a thread thats been done for awhile now?  Good job.  Loosen the chin strap on your helmet. It's cutting off the circulation to what little brain you have left.

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A1000 vs 8086/80186 PC XT etc  = slamdunk to A1000 on every possible aspect.
I should hope so considering an A1000 is newer by some years.

Quote
A1200/4000 vs 386SX/486DX ISA PC = grey area of swings and roundabouts.
Oh, but I thought it was clear that the Amiga was superior no matter what.  Now you change your stance to a "maybe", depending on how you have everything configured?  Simpleton.

Quote
Comparing today's PCs with souped up A1200/A4000s is about as useful as comparing an IBM XT with 128k ram and Hercules graphics card and PC speaker audio to a 512k A1000.
So you're saying this whole thread is useless?  Try leaving then.  You've contributed nothing but nonsense, as per the AMIGA_NUT standard.


LITTLE ARKHAN, OVER AND OUT.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 02:42:38 PM by Arkhan »
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


"Aetherbyte: My fledgling game studio!":  << Probably not coming to an Amiga near you because you all suck! :roflmao: