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Offline Arkhan

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2010, 02:39:50 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;574371
I don't get as much time these days for these threads, but your inconsistency is that you compare latest and greatest hardware add-ons with standard Amiga setup.  

About an hour later (post #39) you wrote:  "Yeah you can get a decent browsing experience if you set it up right and have the right hardware...it sure aint out-of-box internets ready."

You can also buy audio cards for the Amiga or even some sort of PCI interface.  None of my PC machines have 32 channels audio (which you keep mentioning).  Perhaps, it's being emulated in software but you can also do the same then on the Amiga.  .


in regards to the original post, if the Amiga is so great it should be able to stand toe to toe with anything modern computing throws at it, and it should just be so easy and simple to get it to that competitive state.

It doesn't have the music setup I am looking for, so that means it can't.  

I don't care about the behind the scenes stuff because its all relative.  I care about ease-of-use.  my fruityloops setup is more expansive and easy to use than an Amiga sound setup.

its called changing times.  thats all.  More power to people still using octamed, etc.... but I have found better solutions.  *shrug*

Quote from: stefcep2
In 8 meg with 2 meg video ram..I doubt it!!!

Lol, doing all of that on an Amiga w/ 8meg and 2meg is about as fun as jamming your shaft in a bugzapper.
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2010, 02:50:59 AM »
Quote from: Arkhan;574417
in regards to the original post, if the Amiga is so great it should be able to stand toe to toe with anything modern computing throws at it, and it should just be so easy and simple to get it to that competitive state.

It doesn't have the music setup I am looking for, so that means it can't.  

I don't care about the behind the scenes stuff because its all relative.  I care about ease-of-use.  my fruityloops setup is more expansive and easy to use than an Amiga sound setup.

its called changing times.  thats all.  More power to people still using octamed, etc.... but I have found better solutions.  *shrug*


i see. so what you're saying is that 1992 hardware and software can't match 2010 hardware and software.  really!   Well according to Moore's law, computing power should have increased by 2 to the power of 12 in that time (doubles every 18 months) so I'd say you're about right.
Quote

Lol, doing all of that on an Amiga w/ 8meg and 2meg is about as fun as jamming your shaft in a bugzapper.


A PC of the same era wouldn't even find enough resources to move the mouse pointer, if you actually managed to load the browser.
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2010, 02:54:02 AM »
Pc's on the whole bore me... Unless its a very customized pc running linux, or aros then thats a whole different animal.
 
OR unless its a customized pc using windows in the background but booting to amiga os3.x (replace windows shell with os3.x and never
know windows is even involved)
 
Windows pcs on the whole do seem so generic and soul less. I love amigas, I just use the pc and don't care much how it looks or care
to customize the interface/gui. They are so cheap now I don't even care to upgrade or enhance the windows boxes I have, I just keep track of my files in backup and buy a new one every so often. It is just like an appliance, a throw away and replace appliance at that.
 
On the other hand...
I've spent tons of time customizing my linux box though. Sometimes I think that a great linux pc gives me the same feeling amiga gave me back in the day. I am in control of everything, its fast, its reliable and it works how I want it to. I am also often tinkering with adding more drives or other hardware upgrades, quite like I did with my amiga's back in the day.
 
Hopefully, linux will get some more powerful audio and video apps, (or run winxp running windows audio/video apps in a window better) then I can never use windows again.
 
Steven
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2010, 02:55:06 AM »
Hi Arkhan, just wondering why the link you post in your signature opens up a MALWARE WARNING for it, do you know about this ... :(

If anyone would like to check out the WARNING for this site then I suggest you view this 'Google Safe Browsing diagnostic' about this site first.

http://google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?tpl=safari&site=www.aetherbyte.com&hl=en
 

Offline DavidF215

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2010, 03:57:28 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;574401

The usual come back to this is that MS and Linux community can't test every hardware combo out there.  Well that's the whole point of the HAL: you shouldn't need to, it should just work. And I no longer buy the MS claim that the HW vendor didn't follow the rules or the drivers was bad, in all such cases-maybe the rules/concepts themselves aren't right?

That brings me to the other philosophical advantage of Amiga: custom, uniform hardware.  Oh yes, I know that over time custom hardware may get out-performed.  Yet if we look at the PS3 and Xbox-5 or so years old-has that really happened in a way that matters to the user?  ....


Awesome point. Let me tell a quick story. One of my friend's brother works at Microsoft as some type of support Engineer. Very smart guy--even assembled his own audio amp with vacuum tubes because he thought they performed better than the digital equivalent. Anyways, he works with large MS business clients and his department has a blank check to purchase identical equipment to mimic a client's software or hardware problem.  I went to his house once and noticed that he had several iMac computers--one for the kid's room, one in the kitchen and a PowerMac in his office. I asked him why the Macs if he worked at MS. He said because the hardware and software are designed to work together and it works well. He mentioned how there are so many different possible configurations for [Intel] PCs that it is often difficult to pinpoint problems. The OS and selected hardware are optimised. So I also think that customization has credibility and advantages.

With regard to the benefits of customization, I agree with those who say that a "true" Amiga contains the original chipsets. It was all designed to work together, and it worked well. Modernize the chipset with the faster chips of today, and the efficiently designed Amiga system architecture continues.

@Arkhan and stefcep2
Interesting comparison talk between Amiga and x86 in that timeframe. I actually bought my A1200 around 1994 because the x86 couldn't keep up with what I wanted. The A1200 booted within a few seconds, it swapped between running applications quickly and the GUI was quicker in response. Those were my main decision making factors. The other factors included graphics and sound. I was able to play a song on the A1200 and switch between it and other applications (maybe 4 apps running) such as Final Writer with no wait time.

I HATE waiting for a computer to boot. The C64 spoiled me for life (along with the old Intellivision System)--turn the power on and the sucker was ready within two seconds. And the Amiga followed it as my A1200 booted within 5 seconds (I timed it once) compared to that of W95/W98 which took at least 30 seconds. I couldn't stand Win31, W95, or W98! To make any stupid little change required a reboot, and the shutdown and startup took forever! I almost quit tech support because it was so frustrating to troubleshoot and work with. I switched to W2K as quick as I could because it required much fewer reboots; it still took forever to boot, though. For me the only good thing about Microsoft is that they've provided me a job, but there are other jobs or paths I could have (should have) taken instead. When I bought my A1200 in 1994 and started learning it, I was so glad to be done with the MS crap that I thought I'd never go back. Then C= went bankrupt and Amiga International followed suite, and the computer world, IMO, has sucked ever since until recently when Intel/AMD chips are finally fast enough to decently run Windows and Linux; just waiting for the SSDs to drop in price for quicker boot times.

My $0.02 ~ 0.03 euro.  Sorry for the long soap box post.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:59:58 AM by DavidF215 »
AmigaOS enthusiast since 1993.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2010, 04:44:54 AM »
Nice story, but you don't need to be smart to build your own Tube Amp (and many people agree that they have a unique sound that can't be reproduced digitally).  Every student, including me built one in my High School Electronics 1 class.  All you really needed to know is which end of the soldering iron to pick up.  Of course, when I went to High School in the '70's we could get all the Tubes we needed from all the old TV sets that were dead and donated to the school.

I still remember one day while working on that Tube Amp I turned it off, turned it upside down, plugged in my soldering iron and walked away to talk to another student until it warmed up.  When I came back and started to solder I got a nice surprise when my little finger brushed up against the high voltage lead and a ground, that was about a 750 volt jolt from that monster transformer I had.  Low amperage, but it still made me jump and then decide to sit down for a bit and look for the a$$h0le that had switched my Tube Amp back on and sat back to watch the fun.  Another day my instructor came by while I was putting together a HeathKit Power Supply for the class to use and he leaned over the lab counter and put all of his weight on his palms on the counter.  It would have been okay if my soldering iron had not been under one of those palms.

Man, those were the good ole days.  We were a tiny High School on top of a mountain in Southern Calif., but we were the first school in the whole country that had it's own video production equipment and taped every football game for the coaches & team to study, as well as many other school events.  All the gear was old out of date equipment that had been donated, but it worked great.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2010, 05:30:21 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;574391
Well, you are a fine one to talk :)

You're still thinking of graphics cards as they were a decade ago. They have totally and utterly changed. I guarantee you wouldn't know where to begin trying to bang modern GPU hardware if you are still thinking in terms of direct register access, at least if you want to use any modern features.

Drivers exist for a  good reason. My graphics card, for example, has literally thousands of GP registers (as well as "constant" memory) that are shared between 240 stream processors on demand by a hardware many-thread scheduling engine. Even when writing code for the GPU using CUDA, the object code that NVCC produces is not specific to that GPU. Instead, it's a bytecode that is JIT translated at runtime for the hardware.

And, FYI, the VESA compatible registers haven't really changed much, which is why it's almost always possible to use a modern card without any specific drivers. As long as "use" means open a basic frame buffer. If you want to bang those registers, you'll probably get away with it just fine.


I am not against drivers but it's better to have both options-- being able to go direct to hardware as well as driver or API interface.  I would think you already know some of the great stuff written using direct to hardware method on old PCs and Amiga.  And it's a superior interface to have the standardized hardware.

About VESA, that was also an API since when VGA started to add modes like 640*480*256, manufacturers started doing it their own ways.  Currently, my PC that I write this message from only gives me option for 16-bit or 32-bit-- nothing standard.  Perhaps, it exists in my hardware but OS won't let me get to it.  And all the modes which are superior to Amiga's standard graphics are non-standard from the hardware perspective.

Even a frame buffer of 640*480*256 requires accessing nonstandard I/O ports even by different version of cards made by SAME manufacturer.  I have an ATI VGA with 16MB that uses some port 0x56EC to set the 64K window whereas a later ATI RADEON uses some other I/O ports.  Then there are some cards that use 4K windows and some 16K windows and so on.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2010, 05:44:11 AM »
Quote
I am not against drivers but it's better to have both options-- being able to go direct to hardware as well as driver or API interface. I would think you already know some of the great stuff written using direct to hardware method on old PCs and Amiga. And it's a superior interface to have the standardized hardware.


It was fun, banging the metal. However, you cannot deny that many 68000 OCS/ECS titles that did it, mysteriously stopped working on 68020/AGA and point blank refused to do so without degraders and so on. Ultimately this is where blindly depending on hardware configuration X gets you. Hardware changes, even on the Amiga.

The driver model exists not just to ensure that applications have a consistent API to hardware but to allow hardware vendors to radically change their internal hardware. This has to be done, if you want to improve performance. If graphics card manufacturers stuck to using a fixed IO/commandset that any old hacker could bang away at, there's no way we'd ever have migrated from old fixed function graphics pipelines to modern fully-programmable stream-processor machines.
int p; // A
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2010, 06:21:11 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;574434
It was fun, banging the metal. However, you cannot deny that many 68000 OCS/ECS titles that did it, mysteriously stopped working on 68020/AGA and point blank refused to do so without degraders and so on. Ultimately this is where blindly depending on hardware configuration X gets you. Hardware changes, even on the Amiga.

The driver model exists not just to ensure that applications have a consistent API to hardware but to allow hardware vendors to radically change their internal hardware. This has to be done, if you want to improve performance. If graphics card manufacturers stuck to using a fixed IO/commandset that any old hacker could bang away at, there's no way we'd ever have migrated from old fixed function graphics pipelines to modern fully-programmable stream-processor machines.


i'd say in another 5 years, the PS3 and Xbox 360 will still have new software available.  All backwards compatible with the very first editions.  And that generation of software will in likelihood make the HW do things that no-one thought was possible.   Eventually pushing the HW to its limits.  Like some of the amazing demo's that we see running on '030 A1200' with just a bit of fast ram.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2010, 09:03:45 AM »
Quote
I am not against drivers but it's better to have both options-- being able to go direct to hardware as well as driver or API interface. I would think you already know some of the great stuff written using direct to hardware method on old PCs and Amiga. And it's a superior interface to have the standardized hardware.

Superior ? Is it superior that any change in the hardware (evolution means change usually) will break pretty much every application coded using direct access ?
And I think you underestimate the complexity of hardware today: it's not just 3 registers you play with. It's far too complex to be accessed directly.
Last but not least, software was bypassed for a reason at that time: software wasn't complete and/or slowed everything down. As big as the OS are now (and yes, every OS, including OS4/MorphOS even though they are both less heavier than modern OS) the resources needed are negligeable compared to what's available, so it isn't a problem anymore.
Accessing hardware directly only would introduce problems today.
Again: welcome to 2010.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2010, 10:47:26 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;574452
Superior ? Is it superior that any change in the hardware (evolution means change usually) will break pretty much every application coded using direct access ?


I question the trade off in stability that is made to have so much choice of HW, and by the frequent upgrading to better-specced PC HW ( which history shows never seems to match the hype anyway. )

The PS3 and Xbox are pretty complex beasts, and those platforms will be going for another 5 years (10 in total) without the need for changing interfaces/video cards/sound cards.  Sure they have HAL, due to complexity, not for backward compatibility as the HW won't change for 10 years.  And its likely that the games and media playnack facilities will compete with whatever the PC  is doing (1920x1080 and 7.1 sound FFS).  Ease of use and stability is unsurpassed.  So if not not games and media playback what's left for the PC? Comms and Office work, which a single core cpu and 512 MB RAM can do?  Software development-hardly mainstream.  Maybe some niche things like video-editing, image editing, music making.
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2010, 12:53:46 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;574434
It was fun, banging the metal. However, you cannot deny that many 68000 OCS/ECS titles that did it, mysteriously stopped working on 68020/AGA and point blank refused to do so without degraders and so on. Ultimately this is where blindly depending on hardware configuration X gets you. Hardware changes, even on the Amiga.

The driver model exists not just to ensure that applications have a consistent API to hardware but to allow hardware vendors to radically change their internal hardware. This has to be done, if you want to improve performance. If graphics card manufacturers stuck to using a fixed IO/commandset that any old hacker could bang away at, there's no way we'd ever have migrated from old fixed function graphics pipelines to modern fully-programmable stream-processor machines.


It's quite possible to have upgrading of hardware and maintain hardware register compatibility.  It happened up to point of VGA (as far as graphics cards go); they went from CGA->EGA->VGA.  After that manufacturers started concocting their own methods and I/O ports as there was no one setting a standard.  The fact that there are OCS/ECS demos/games/etc. that do work on AGA proves my point.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2010, 12:56:23 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;574462
The fact that there are OCS/ECS demos/games/etc. that do work on AGA proves my point.


And the fact there are many that don't equally proves otherwise.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2010, 01:02:14 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;574452
Superior ? Is it superior that any change in the hardware (evolution means change usually) will break pretty much every application coded using direct access ?
And I think you underestimate the complexity of hardware today: it's not just 3 registers you play with. It's far too complex to be accessed directly.
Last but not least, software was bypassed for a reason at that time: software wasn't complete and/or slowed everything down. As big as the OS are now (and yes, every OS, including OS4/MorphOS even though they are both less heavier than modern OS) the resources needed are negligeable compared to what's available, so it isn't a problem anymore.
Accessing hardware directly only would introduce problems today.
Again: welcome to 2010.


VGA is not 3 registers-- it's hundreds of registers.  More were added from EGA.  It's superior; if you know the difference between BASIC or C and ASSEMBLY, then you know what I'm talking about.  Assembly language is superior, but I'm not against BASIC/C.  Going direct to standardized hardware is optimal whereas going through some software API is slower, inefficient, and inexact although it may help you develop faster.  And last but not least, software has caused problems by their incompatibility and bugs.  Many Windows 3.x functions are obsolete in modern Windows API.  Ooops, you can't even run Windows 3.x stuff anymore-- "Please obtain copy of 32-bit/64-bit version from vendor or obtain Microsoft version."  What a joke!  Nice sales pitch given most technical people know that processor is quite capable of supporting Windows 3.x.  What if vendor is long dead and gone or no longer developing for Windows?  Old PCs from 1990s were backward compatible; now the incompatibility, bloated ware, dead code, etc. have increased.  Yeah, welcome to 2010.  You would screw up if you went directly to hardware nowadays because the hardware is non-standard and inconsistent.  So Amiga wins, it has a superior interface-- I can still write OCS code that works on AGA going directly to hardware.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2010, 01:03:25 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;574463
And the fact there are many that don't equally proves otherwise.


No, it doesn't.  That it's do-able is the point.  You can directly go to the hardware and still have it work across the board on all Amigas.  There's a lot of API-based software that no longer works on modern PCs.  See my other post.
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Offline Franko

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Re: Amiga vs PC
« Reply #74 from previous page: August 12, 2010, 01:04:00 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;574463
And the fact there are many that don't equally proves otherwise.

I haven't found one yet, that without a bit of hacking, or using degraders or WHDload slaves that don't work with AGA. :)

But then again Im not a big demo fan, but the ones that I considered to be good enough to run on AGA were worth going to the bother of making them work... :)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 01:05:17 PM by Franko »