AmigaDE for Pegasos PPC website

[GGS]

Hi Glaucus ;-)

#

Why single out Amiga Inc.... etc...

---

Well, isn't that good you think... more sites given notice to and about Amiga & then also AmigaDE.... ;-)

I don't know where you got this with entrenched from... ?

 

[teo]

Im still dumbfounded by all of this speculation, wake up people! buck obviously reads these forums and this thread in particular so ask him directly what the motives are.

So then, Bill Buck, what are you motives for wanting to have the amiga de as part of the mos platform. Please do not be vague in your response. I can only think of the following reasons:
1) like the de idea and believe it would add value to mos
2) want to send a-inc bankrupt
3) just a way to "amiga" name on your product
4) not willing to lose face in public via a backdown or compromise

any others people can think of?

ps, i would expect you would be courteous enough to answer this question (i know your reading it) and if not will assume the answer to one one or more of 2, 3 or 4

pps, can you sign your response with whoever is typing it, either bb *or* rv as i want to directly know who im talking to, not who your speaking on behalf of becuase you want to be ambiguous.

ppps, on the off-topic of avatars, i might be changing mine soon as well, more news to come :-)...

[GGS]

Hi teotwin !

1) like the de idea and believe it would add value to mos

Everything does, don't you think ?

2) want to send a-inc bankrupt

Why ?

3) just a way to "amiga" name on your product

Is there anything wrong with the Amiga name ?

4) not willing to lose face in public via a backdown or compromise

?

[teo]

GGS

[edit] after re-read the following may sound like a persoanl attack, please dont take it as such, im mearly trying to emphasise that im trying to avoid speculation and opinions for my above question[/edit]

are you bb under another name (thats not sarcasm, its a real question) i will assume not until corrected. Therefore i'd appreciate you not answering on behalf of someone else as the SOLE PURPOSE of my questions were for BB to answer and to stop the speculation (as you are doing), but in response:

1) actually i dont like the idea (in respect to amiga os) of de much myself. Good idea by itself but not in my personal vision of what i would like my ideal amiga to include.

2) why send a-inc bankrupt? commercial advantage of course, its obvious. Plus its also obvious they dont like each other so revenge or spite perhaps.

3) again another commercial advantage, the name *amiga* is a well known name and has huge advertising potential, and as such is a good reason to be able to use it on products.

4) what i mean is that this fight has been dragged into the public domain and anyone backing down may be seen as loosing face, which would be a motive to continue the fight to win/lose (persoanlly id respect a backdown much more, and yes, from either side)

[Glaucus]

Who is and who is not in the right regarding DE will eventually be decided by the court.

Correct, and if the courts decide in favour of Genesi then they would at least have a legal right to make reference to the AmigaDE on their website, however, as far as I know the court case is still on-going.

The reason I'm singling out Amiga Inc on the issue is because so far they are the ones who have made it plain they will not negotiate.

It is also in Amiga Inc's right to not negotiate and let the courts settle it. If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same, especially if they feel they have a strong case. Unfortunately it seems they can't afford counsil which may sink their ship, but that's a different matter. And who's to say what's going on behind closed doors? Negotiations may very well be going on, there's no reason to trust anyone involved as to what's really going on in private. Personally, I don't trust Bill Buck's public statements regarding such business dealings.

You seem to saying that Genesi are inflexible for not dropping the matter altogether.

Well, yes in a way I am because what I really am doing is questioning Genesi's motives. Why go to the trouble of aquiring a technology that both you and I, and many others, consider a useless technology (at least on the desktop market, the mobil market may still prove to be viable)? Even if AmigaDE becomes viable, there's little reason for it to be bundled with the OS. Hell, even the current version of OS4 isn't slated to have the AmigaDE included in it, why would one expect Amiga Inc to hand it over to the MOS team?!? Really, it makes no sense, which makes me wonder if there are more sinister plots at hand. To make it perfectly clear, I am accusing the MOS team of deliberatly trying to hurt Amiga Inc, while at the same time trying to get the legal rights to the AmigaDE simply for the name's sake. Remember, in my first (or was it second?) post I said that Bill Buck only cares about the AmigaDE because it has the "Amiga" name in it. I think that sums it up pretty well. So, back to your original statement... What's to negotiate when what Genesi REALLY wants is the "Amiga" name and Amiga Inc could not possibly have any benefit from sharing it's one and only trump card with their main competitor! It makes no sense for Amiga to negotiate - it's do or die for them and without in betweens. Does that make sense?

  - Mike

[GGS]

#
are you bb under another name

No

And thank you for noticing about no personal attack !

1) actually i dont like the idea (in respect to amiga os) of de much myself. Good idea by itself but not in my personal vision of what i would like my ideal amiga to include.

Ok

2) why send a-inc bankrupt? commercial advantage of course, its obvious. Plus its also obvious they dont like each other so revenge or spite perhaps.

I cant se any commercial advantage in a-inc going bankrupt.

About if people like each other or not, I would like to say its up to each one self to tell and also who they dont like in that case.

3) again another commercial advantage, the name *amiga* is a well known name and has huge advertising potential, and as such is a good reason to be able to use it on products.

If you see it that way, I also do understand that you feel its a commercial advantage.

4) what i mean is that this fight has been dragged into the public domain and anyone backing down may be seen as loosing face, which would be a motive to continue the fight to win/lose (persoanlly id respect a backdown much more, and yes, from either side)

I dont get that, and would like to say its up to you who you want to see it. But would also like to say, thumb up for that you wrote that you respect a backdown from anyone.

Anyway a contract is usually signed between two parts :-), and also normally the aim with a contract is that both signing should gain something from the contract, else contracts should be quite useless and not many should sign any contracts at all... or ?

All the best.

[Glaucus]

Just to re-enforce my arguments here....

When you go to this new web site, the first thing that pops up at you is the word "AmigaDE", followed directly by the AmigaDE logo which looks a hell of a lot like the AmigaOS logo. In fact, most people out of the loop would probably assume they are only different versions of the same thing - which they are clearly not.

But that's not all. The web site doesn't even mention who built the AmigaDE. That's right, not one mention of AmigaDE's founder, Amiga Inc. In fact, in the About section we have this little gem:
The AmigaDE PPC Community (ADEC) is offered by Genesi as a free service for all developers interested in AmigaDE PPC.

I mean, if I didn't know any better, I would assume Genesi built and designed the AmigaDE. In fact, they don't even mention Intent or Tao, but they DO have a convinient link to the Genesi web site. Generally speaking, a company never offers product support for their competitors! That's like Microsoft creating a developer community for Linux users!

And last but not least, the AmigaDE PPC community that they speak of DOES NOT EXIST!!! If they omitted the PPC part then they could at least argue that they are including the AmigaDE community as a whole, but that is not the case, they specifically support only the non-existant PPC AmigaDE community. I bet there's lots to talk about there!!!

So please forgive me for coming to the conclusion that something sinister is at play here.

  - Mike

[cdfr]

It looks that bbrv is happy to help any developer effort that would run on the Pegasos.
If he can help the developers to get somewhere and thanks to that sell a few more Pegasos everyone wins.

I'm sure that the fact that the site was set up was to see if there is enough interest to build something. Even if it is not sure it is stil an opportunity to try to do something.

[GGS]

Hi Glaucus

My last post in this thread...

And just some points.

If you have thoughts about the website, you could;

1; Bring forward to them who created the website your thoughts.

2; Bring forward to anyone behind or involved in AmigaDE your thoughts.

About this with PPC. Maybe its depends on that Genesi is working with creating a PPC-solution ?

Also finally, if you have thoughts about contracts or anything about the courtcase, you could also forward your thoughts to respectively.

About sinister play I have no idea..., sorry.

[Rodney]

For F@#k sake every body. Its just a web site! I dont understand what you'r all worried about!

also i think it was Gary C that said it... I also thought that intent ran on PPC. I was told this about a year ago i think by someone at Amiga Inc... maybe fleecy? Cant remember.

[Rodney]

Tomas wrote:

Some people have been saying it's technically impossible to port DE to Pegasos/MorphOS, and at the same time these same people keep forgetting it's won't be much different to Aone/OS4 target. So.. Is it impossible or not?

i have to say i agree there.. the systems are not all that different...
Though i really have hard to see why genesis want this... it was a total failure.. seems like they only do this to harm amigainc.. That is what I believe atleast

People bashed amigainc for the idea of AmigaDE, but still they want it? makes no sense

Dont they want it so that they can call their computers Amiga's? I think thats their primary reasoning behind it. Which is just business... Again, you might all care because it'll take the focus off the real AmigaOS, but boo hoo

btw - even if morphos was totaly different to AmigaOS, does that mean it would be impossible to port? I find these questions "can we port this product to this platform" confusing... You can port anything to anything. Its just another program running on another platofrom

[dammy]

by Glaucus on 2003/11/29 21:32:13

Correct, and if the courts decide in favour of Genesi then they would at least have a legal right to make reference to the AmigaDE on their website, however, as far as I know the court case is still on-going.

Your forgetting about the contract issue which is why there is court action. Genesi has a contract with Amiga Inc for rights to logos and such for (then) existing hardware and future hardware (that's where Peg comes in) within reasonable limits which Amiga Inc agreed to not be able to dismiss any product out of hand without a legit reason.  If Amiga Inc wins, they will probably request to the courts that Genesi remove said links and logos.  Until then, Genesi has reasonable expectations of using the contract terms as they see fit.  

It is also in Amiga Inc's right to not negotiate and let the courts settle it. If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same, especially if they feel they have a strong case. Unfortunately it seems they can't afford counsil which may sink their ship, but that's a different matter. And who's to say what's going on behind closed doors? Negotiations may very well be going on, there's no reason to trust anyone involved as to what's really going on in private. Personally, I don't trust Bill Buck's public statements regarding such business dealings.

Amiga Inc is being extremely stupid not to deal with Genesi.  Even that $250K Genesi offered besides the monies for porting, to keep Amiga Inc afloat shows there is no reasonable business practice left, it's all petty actions of Amiga Inc's executives.  Amiga Inc is more then willing to steal $65K from the Amiga Kommunity, but it won't touch Genesi's $250K?  What type of nut jobs are running the show?   A cash strapped company that is in dire economic straights turns down a paying customer with up front money?  Hello, is anyone in there?

What's to negotiate when what Genesi REALLY wants is the "Amiga" name and Amiga Inc could not possibly have any benefit from sharing it's one and only trump card with their main competitor! It makes no sense for Amiga to negotiate - it's do or die for them and without in betweens. Does that make sense?

None what so ever.  Competitor is M$ and Amiga Inc is being a little whore with Gates.  Next competitor would be Linux community.  Way down the F'ing road is Genesi, a mear grain of sand compared to Amiga Inc's real competitors.  Hell, TAO group is more of a competitor to Amiga Inc the Genesi is, and TAO group owns the core IP to DE.

Dammy

[Waccoon]

I seriously doubt the addition of AmigaDE capabilities would add anything of value to any OS, be it AmigaOS4 or MorphOS.

I don't see any benefit to anybody since DE has not really been demonstrated.  Most people are at a loss as to what DE really is and is supposed to do.  Being dead quiet for nearly four years after "buying" the Amiga name tends to do that.  Personally, I feel Amiga has been dead for two years and won't release anything.  If that's not true, they sure haven't been trying hard to convince us otherwise.

Why use DE and Ami2D when you can use PTL natively on practically any OS?

[Rodney]

Waccoon wrote:
I don't see any benefit to anybody since DE has not really been demonstrated.  Most people are at a loss as to what DE really is and is supposed to do.  Being dead quiet for nearly four years after "buying" the Amiga name tends to do that.  Personally, I feel Amiga has been dead for two years and won't release anything.  If that's not true, they sure haven't been trying hard to convince us otherwise.

Why use DE and Ami2D when you can use PTL natively on practically any OS?

Well its not big atm, but remember Amiga Incs long term plan is to get AmigaOS running through the DE, which is a grand idea. Much like the .net strategy without all the webservices crap.

Thats a long way off and by the looks of things at Amiga Inc, it may not ever get to that stage so theres no real point in duscussing it. Genesi basically want the DE so they can get some of the Amiga's naming rights... That is, it would be cool to call the pegasos an Amiga That may seem like robery to some, but its just business.

[samo79]

I don't see i this site any mention of a trademark of Amiga Inc.

If Genesi can use legally this product, he must tell about the real proprietary of a trademark

I hope for the Amiga future, a better Company....

[bbrv]

We appreciate all the comments on this thread, the good and the bad.  We do these kinds of things to understand the market better.  In some posts good ideas are presented, in others we understand opinions and bias we would not otherwise encounter and last but not least we understand the depth of the ignorance so often associated with the understanding of a controversial situation such as this.

The bottom line is we do not know if AmigaDE is worth the license fee that we will pay to integrate it into a product offering we make.  Perhaps, with Tao involved it might be.  We will see.  For the record, the Amiga Trademarks are not important to us.   The Development and User Community and the hundreds applications still useful are.  These are not owned by Amiga Inc.  Finally, the lawsuit's damages are capped at -ZERO- in the situation as it exists today.  This will not be the reason Amiga Inc. go into bankruptcy.  They are not paying lawyers, so they have no expense on the account of this matter and even less if a Judgment is granted.  The result?  Amiga Inc. begins to generate revenue from Genesi IF we do something with it.  And, that, will depend on the Developers out there that are interested.

R&B  :-)