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Author Topic: What is memory protection and why is it so hard to implement for the AmigaOS?  (Read 20696 times)

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Offline Arkhan

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Quote from: Amiga_Nut;569434
Windows may have memory protection since XP (as well as all versions of NT of course but that's not a desktop OS) BUT Windows still gets ass raped at the mere sniff of a TCP/IP connection so why is it so important?



My entire school was running NT in all of the labs.  We were using the OS, on a desktop!  :roflmao:

There was memory "protection" before the days of NT/XP, but it wasn't nearly as secure/effective.  It was still there.  sort of.


Come try to ass-rape my windows boxes with a mere sniff.  I'm sure you will do your usual and mass facepalms will reign forth, followed by

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:51:00 PM by Arkhan »
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


"Aetherbyte: My fledgling game studio!":  << Probably not coming to an Amiga near you because you all suck! :roflmao:
 

Offline Pentad

Quote from: Amiga_Nut;569434
Windows may have memory protection since XP (as well as all versions of NT of course but that's not a desktop OS) BUT Windows still gets ass raped at the mere sniff of a TCP/IP connection so why is it so important?


Linux User (Arch & OpenSUSE TW) - WinUAE via WINE
 

Offline stefcep2

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Back in the day, AmigaOs 3.x lacking memory protection was acknowledged,  Theoretically, a lot of bad things COULD and on occasion DID happen without MP ie loss of data, OS being crashed by some rogue process.  In reality, few users actually experienced the bad things about not having MP.  Programmers (by good programming practices) and users (by saving often) learned to live without MP. Afterall, many fantastic apps, games, art, music, videos, were created on this OS without memory protection-look at aminet for  proof of that.

The real threats of compromised security and having your computer taken over remotely, or having malware corrupt your OS are likely to come from taking your Amiga online and a third party executing ( 68k or PPC) commands/code with malicous intent.  Yes it IS possible, theoretically, but REALLY how likely is that?  I've heard people say "security by obscurity is no security".  Theoretically no.  In practice when was the last time your amiga got a virus, or had malicous code run on it?  In fact, billions of users have a much higher probability of having  exactly that happen to them, and millions of PC's are running malware at this very minute, and they're all using an OS that has had MP for a decade or so.  I have a feeling this is the point Amiga_nutta was trying o make.

I'd argue, that as a single-user computer, MP on the Amiga hasn't been missed by the users.  MP on the amiga is a more or less academic discussion that interests the (few) developers every now and then. IF you want to run legacy 68k software, hell even PPC software, then  do it like we always have.  Really.  Just remember to save regularly.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Quote from: LoadWB;569452
I would quickly argue against this point at the very least for security sake.


Against what, exactly?
 

Offline tone007

One more for Amiga_Nut's collection.

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Offline vidarh

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Quote from: stefcep2;569489
I'd argue, that as a single-user computer, MP on the Amiga hasn't been missed by the users.  MP on the amiga is a more or less academic discussion that interests the (few) developers every now and then. IF you want to run legacy 68k software, hell even PPC software, then  do it like we always have.  Really.  Just remember to save regularly.


It hasn't been missed that much because the users that are still using AmigaOS have largely gotten used to working around it and/or sticking to applications they know are "safe".

It's battered wife syndrome. It "works fine" as long as you tiptoe around and avoid doing any of the many things you know might cause things to blow up, and explain away the bad things.

That works for existing users, who fell in love with AmigaOS when the alternatives had the same problems. Even some of us "returning" users might be able to tolerate it. Not so much everyone else who don't know/understand/care about what things they should not do and what programs they should avoid and so on.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Quote

MP on the amiga is a more or less academic discussion that interests the (few) developers every now and then.

I wouldn't let any Amiga powered on for weeks with lots of software running and important data unsaved. This isn't an academic discussion...

I wouldn't mind letting powered on MacOSX, Win2K+, Unix opened with lots of important stuff unsaved. Cause unless there was a powercut I know my data would be back when I'll get back.

I don't want to have to choose the software I run because it may make me lose my work... nor do I want to wait before my HD led is off before powering my computer off, nor do I want to have to check I have enough graphics memory before running a (graphics) memory hungry software because the OS isn't capable of swapping: this is the task of the OS, not mine. The OS should (and will) take down any application trying to write outside its memory mapped, the OS should close all apps and power the computer down when no app is writing to the disk, and the OS should automatically swap memory for my apps...

This was acceptable 15 years ago. I think it's not today. Much like monotasking OS isn't acceptable, even for a phone... Would you use some DOS-like monotasking OS today ? don't you think having a GUI or not is an academic discussion ? after all you can do everything you want with just a simple console, right ?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 06:09:31 PM by warpdesign »
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Quote from: Piru;569469
Not really, unless of course if you break the backwards compatibility and run old stuff in a sandbox that is.
Something that is actually always preferable. Unless stupid short-sighted 'budget considerations' are ruling it out.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline kolla

Quote from: stefcep2;569489
I'd argue, that as a single-user computer, MP on the Amiga hasn't been missed by the users.


Nonsense, many users left Amiga due to lack of MP when Internet became "the thing" to do with computers in early/mid 90ies - the lack of MP was also a major reason why Amiga users went on to create Linux and NetBSD for Amiga computers back then.

And as for abusing Amigas online, I know that _I_ have "broken" into remote Amigas that due to malconfiguration and lack of MP meant a lot of fun for me, and maybe not so much fun for someone else.  The highlight was to dump prefs files into remote ENV: and watch the confused target rave about his problems on IRC :laughing:
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline NorthWay

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You can sandbox and make it work. Somehow.

There are two problems with this:
1. You end up with 1% New World apps, and 99% Old World apps. Doesn't really change much if you mostly use an Old World app? Could get real fast reboots though.
2. There is no echosystem to shift the 1 - 99 balance. (That is what Windows and Apple had. And a firm whip.)
 

Offline hardlink

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Quote from: Piru;569429
@Fats
The issue of MP has been debated for at least 15 years.


Yes, and that's just on the WWW! The usenet debates/flames about Amiga MP and resource tracking went back almost to the beginning. People have been thinking about it for almost a quarter century, and as Piru has pointed out, no one has delivered yet.
 

Offline kolla

Quote from: NorthWay;569543
You can sandbox and make it work. Somehow.

There are two problems with this:
1. You end up with 1% New World apps, and 99% Old World apps. Doesn't really change much if you mostly use an Old World app? Could get real fast reboots though.
2. There is no echosystem to shift the 1 - 99 balance. (That is what Windows and Apple had. And a firm whip.)


If I understand things right, this is what MorphOS did with abox, and look what happened - abox is all there is, and little has changed.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline psxphill

Quote from: Piru;569462
Indeed. The amiga APIs (and thus apps) are full of dependencies of single global memory space (you can add tons of various caller passed structures to system for instance, say PutMsg().. the struct Message will be added to foreign struct MsgPort. There are no strict rules how to allocate either. Many apps allocate them from stack, and that is perfectly legal with AmigaOS). It'd never work... Unless if you redesign the whole API, which in this plan was supposed to be avoided.

Back in the day I theorised about having friend processes. Any process that you talk to would be allowed to access any of your memory. However you'd automatically have to become friends with any of your friends friends as they may pass your memory on. There are some things you would have to change to make that work, because anything talking to a filesystem would end up with a lot of friends.
 

Offline kolla

Just what the world needs, an OS that behaves like facebook :lol:
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Arkhan

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Quote from: kolla;569560
just what the world needs, an os that behaves like facebook :lol:


farmville-os
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


"Aetherbyte: My fledgling game studio!":  << Probably not coming to an Amiga near you because you all suck! :roflmao:
 

Offline psxphill

Re: What is memory protection and why is it so hard to implement for the AmigaOS?
« Reply #44 from previous page: July 08, 2010, 11:06:59 PM »
Quote from: kolla;569560
Just what the world needs, an OS that behaves like facebook :lol:

Facebook isn't that bad. It's more like http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0196217/