Given x1000 news is everywhere.....but nonchalance prevails

[Amiga_Nut]

Commodore engineers wrote a long paper as to how Amiga would develop after AAA and if you read it you will see the X1000 is what they describe (I kid you not).

To be fair all Commodore decided was AAA was a waste of money and would yield terrible price/performance ratio. Whatever else is written in this paper is limited to technology available at the time. This is a no brainer, two of the most powerful consoles use standard GPUs from either Nvidia or ATI. If Microsoft can't afford funding magic custom chipsets then nobody can

However, had Commodore had the intelligence to dig up VRAM Ranger and forget about AAA/Hombre and other DRAM based crap they could have wiped the floor with the competition in 1990 let alone 1993 when AGA was around.

I remember quite specifically the most powerful video cards for PC were the Diamond Stealth units, specifically the VRAM models. If that's what VRAM did for crappy ISA bus systems in the mid 90s just think how sophisticated a computer designed around a VRAM chipset like Ranger would be. And this was completed in 1987 because Jay Miner said so in interviews.

As for the rest, Commodore never should have considered anything other than PowerPC end of story, in the early 90s PPC was the spiritual successor to 68k series in terms of power (RISC based) and price compared to 32bit Pentium CPUs....the first line of which were pretty damned lame until at least MMX was out. The protracted stupidity of contemplating anything other than x86 or PPC was typical Commodore.....and it sent out a message to the Wintel/Apple world "we are clueless twats still grappling what CPU to use on a replacement for our ageing architecture let alone a complete design"

As for the A2000, don't mention that pile of junk as anything other than typical Commodore cockup. 30 months after A1000 all that we got was A1000 chipset and some slot connectors. Great...the issue was more colours...more sound channels....faster blitting...faster stock CPU like 14mhz 020 mated to chipset DMA on the motherboard.
What was Not wanted was ISA slots and a breathed on A1000 68k design with ROMs not WOM. Ditto for A500...another disaster thanks to some clueless moron at Commodore sacking Los Gatos engineers and hiring clueless teams from West Chester and C= GMBH to design A500 and A2000. No TV modulator, not even an on/off switch on the actual computer for the A500. And one of the ugliest cases ever designed second only to the CD32 probably. Nice.

[DAX]

Amiga_Nut
Your post is extremely insightful and I agree with it 100%.

The problem is that "WHEN" those decisions were to be made, they decided otherwise (as you so clearly explained) and the time arrived where everything was in jeopardy.

And as you said, today, if Microsoft can't...no brainer.

Basically the point is, in 2010 Nvidia+Ati rule, no need to cry for fabled chipsets (today I mean, not in the past, where the right decisions might have led somewhere nice) as they (fabled chipset wannabe makers) would never compare with all the R&D these companies throw at it every year.

[the_leander]

Not at all, they already have designs with additional parts being integrated in the CPU for TOP models as well (and where do you think this continuous process will lead in the long run? at having everything separated again? get real please).

Certain things are being integrated for sure, on the low end market, especially the nettop/netbook market this makes a huge amount of sense both in terms of cost and power usage. However at the top end there are different stresses - the integration of the memory controller for instance is done to reduce latency. It's unlikely you'll see the gpu moving onto these parts any time soon simply because there isn't the need either on the generic server markets or workstations or high end gaming rigs.

A 2Ghz CPU has the same benchs as a similarly clocked Core2Duo (as posted by Karlos) if you had that power in 2002 lucky you.

As Karlos stated, he was unsure if the Core2Duo benchmark was based on a single or both cores. Regardless, C2D based systems can be had for a tenth of the cost of an X1000. A tenth.

And the Nemo board is still the most "different" motherboard you will ever see in a personal computer from today to eternity, might as well like that a little bit?

Different!=Useful.

There was a post on another thread that I think perfectly summed it up, it said something along the lines of "£1500 to run an Alpha of Firefox?"

I don't remember anything about PC-Risc and doubling of AAA, which means you are referring to something earlier.

Or that you've got no idea what you're talking about. I suspect the latter. Here: Commordores last gasp - Hombre. There was nothing later than this as C= down long before it ever got off of the drawing board.

No it wasn't. It was designed for desktop and server applications.

You don't typically use a 2+ GHz multi-core CPU as an embedded microcontroller.

You do if that embedded microcontroller is a key part of a telecommunications node. That is where PPC is aimed at these days. Not desktop, not generic servers but telecoms. PPC for desktop (and lets face it, generic servers) is dead, it exists only in niche products in niche industries.

You often find PPCs tied with FPGAs these days (thankyou the fella that pointed me to that a few months back) within this market.

[Methuselas]

So all the more reason to support AROS

@ Runequester,

OT, but if you're ever around Burgerville, make sure you have a Tillamook for me.


Oh, AROS has my total support, as does MorphOS and even OS4. I love the AmigaOS, in general. My problem is that none of the "next gen" versions can do what I need to do on a daily basis, due to proprietary software to maintain industry standards. While I could use Linux and their "alternative" choices for said software, it's much easier for me to just use Windows along with the programs I use at work, everyday. The only application that's been ported to MorphOS and OS4 that I could use is Blender and I'm currently using ZBrush 3.5 as a mainstay, along with Maya.

While I would love to use one of the Amiga "alternatives" as even just a "semi-main" machine, AROS isn't as robust as I would like or need. OS4 has extremely expensive hardware, that is half a decade behind the current. In addition, OS4 is lacking in features I would like as a norm, not to mention it's got a lack of a decent web browser, including flash and java support. MorphOS gives me cheaper hardware, for sure, but has the same problems with OS4, as it too is lacking in features I would like and is missing java support. Once MorphOS is running on a powerbook, I'll buy one and then I'll use that as a "toy", if you will, as I'm to a point with the Amiga, that I want something portable and small.

Every Amiga "alternative" has a right to exist and it's own merits on why it should. My biggest pet peeve with the entire community, however, is the fact that there's no camaraderie. There's so many applications for A that aren't on B or C. Sure people are all, "You're welcome to port my code, if you'd like", but there also saying "but I'm not going to do it". I understand why they say, do and feel like that, but the "camps" refuse to just say "hey, we're different, but that just encourages evolution, let's work together and add compatibility between the three to allow even faster development". They would rather pick the other apart, like bitter siblings.

That's why I laugh when the "zealots" break out with their song and dance about how better "they" are. I make opinions, which last I checked, was a basic, human right. I do take a few digs, but it's out of love and not spite. I'm rather abrasive and sarcastic in person and believe me when I say that I don't act any different on the internet. I speak my mind, openly and call out bullsh!t as soon as I see it.

Trevor Dickinson must be an incredible guy, for taking a chance on the Amiga Community. It's commendable that he's taken this time and effort to attempt to boost the Amiga Vendors. Seriously, he's probably the *LAST* chance that OS4 has to take the name of "successor" to Classic 3.9. The x1000, for what it is, is decent hardware, but it's catered towards the developers in mind (note the kickbacks they're getting). That's great, for development. From a marketing and economic standpoint, it's not the target audience for their attempted business model. Playing games with the market base as "advertising", when you have no product and the market base has been jaded by "vapor hardware" so many times, they're skeptical about everything, is asinine. Learn a thing from Apple. Don't do "press releases", until you have final product.

They need a machine that costs, including the price of OS4, around 300-500$. They do that and their capital will swell. Problem is, everyone gets a piece of the hardware and software price, which boosts the customer price exponentially. Too many hands in the cookie jar. The first run is going to lose money, period. The Amiga market base is too small to sustain such an undertaking. It has to be done slowly and in timed, organized spurts.

I would like to guide the remnants of Amiga, together, to standards near what you find in most modern operating systems. The most simple way to do this, is to simply start working together. I just do not understand why certain parts of MorphOS, OS4 and AROS cannot work in synchronicity to allow code to be ported faster between the three in an efficient manner?

Open Office, an HTML5 compatible browser with flash support, a full port of java, OpenGL4.0, as examples need to be ported to all three new-gen Amigas, but it needs to be done so code is efficiently passed between all three in the quickest amount of time possible. The undertaking needs to be done by developers from each "camp", working in tandem with one another. Who gives a sh!t what "flavor" you're using, so long as it's a fork from the original Amiga Operating System by Commodore?

The days of reinventing the Amiga wheel are over.

[DAX]

Certain things are being integrated for sure, on the low end market, especially the nettop/netbook market this makes a huge amount of sense both in terms of cost and power usage. However at the top end there are different stresses - the integration of the memory controller for instance is done to reduce latency. It's unlikely you'll see the gpu moving onto these parts any time soon simply because there isn't the need either on the generic server markets or workstations or high end gaming rigs.

You repeated your reply but not answer my question: where this integration process will eventually and inevitably lead in the coming years considering that Hi-end gaming PCs are selling less and less every year ?

As Karlos stated, he was unsure if the Core2Duo benchmark was based on a single or both cores. Regardless, C2D based systems can be had for a tenth of the cost of an X1000. A tenth.

You seem to forget that this is a premium PPC machine for AmigaOS developers and users with deep pockets (a lot of them around as they got 150 people that want to beta test) in order for them to expand the platform. Those that think in your terms are not the target audience, the latter instead DOESN'T think in your terms. This is just a first step, if all goes according to plan newer machines will be done later.

Different!=Useful.

There was a post on another thread that I think perfectly summed it up, it said something along the lines of "£1500 to run an Alpha of Firefox?"

see above.

Or that you've got no idea what you're talking about. I suspect the latter. Here: Commordores last gasp - Hombre. There was nothing later than this as C= down long before it ever got off of the drawing board.

Instead it is as I said has the paper i mentioned as nothing to do with Hombre. it was posted many times at AW if you want I can go there and ask for a copy/link.

You do if that embedded microcontroller is a key part of a telecommunications node. That is where PPC is aimed at these days. Not desktop, not generic servers but telecoms. PPC for desktop (and lets face it, generic servers) is dead, it exists only in niche products in niche industries.

You often find PPCs tied with FPGAs these days (thankyou the fella that pointed me to that a few months back) within this market.

And who says? PPC cores are used in the Xbox360 (and more) and now in the AmigaOne X1000, if the CPU does what you need it to do, than it's all good.

[the_leander]

You repeated your reply but not answer my question: where this integration process will eventually and inevitably lead in the coming years considering that Hi-end gaming PCs are selling less and less every year ?

The problem with predicting the future is that any prediction I could make regardless of what it was would almost certainly be wrong, if not in the overall direction but in key details.

It altogether depends on what pressures face the market in the future, right now things are going portable - away from big box systems. As a result space and airflow are at a premium - integrating makes sense in this arena. High end servers/pro workstations and gaming rigs however have different stresses on them.

Big box systems aren't going to to away any time soon and whilst the top end is always going to be a comparatively small part of the market (and smaller still until the recession lifts) it does tend to be willing to fork over truly biblical amounts of cash for the latest and greatest. But even in the mid-range, which will always do a good bit of business there is less of a pressure to include things like a gpu onto the die of your cpu. Perhaps if things go more over to "lifestyle" PCs such as this, then who knows...

You seem to forget that this is a premium PPC machine for AmigaOS developers and users with deep pockets (a lot of them around as they got 150 people that want to beta test) in order for them to expand the platform.

Ah yes, beta testing. That old chestnut. I remember zealots coming on here around the time of the A1-SE's launch saying pretty much the same thing - high price on comparatively poor hardware "but it's for the developers and beta testers". Those prices didn't really come down all that much and in the mean time the community is now a tiny fraction of what was there in 2000.

Sure, a handful of folk will buy one. Then what? You think there is going to be much by way of work done to optimise OS4 for ~200 - 300 customers? Look how long it's taken to get OS4 working on what you already have... Sam sales have all but tanked - almost anyone who wanted one has already got one.

Those that think in your terms are not the target audience, the latter instead DOESN'T think in your terms. This is just a first step, if all goes according to plan newer machines will be done later.

Good luck with that.

Instead it is as I said has the paper i mentioned as nothing to do with Hombre. it was posted many times at AW if you want I can go there and ask for a copy/link.

Hombre was the last thing Commodore ever planned to build. Now whilst there may have been engineers who had different ideas and proposals toward them. Hombre was as far as corporate were concerned the roadmap. End of.

And who says?

The markets primarily. With the exception as you state of games consoles, the vast majority of PPCs you will find today are in telecoms and networking equipment, often married up to fpgas.

The X1000 really doesn't feature outside of a tiny subsection within this community.

[jorkany]

Because not many people seem impressed regardless of price. So what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?

1 Do you wan't the equivalent of the A1000 ie pricey but technically light years ahead of everything else for the price of a top end Mac/PC octa-core CPUd desktop? A machine so powerful that you could write games in BASIC/C that exceed PS3/360 games technically but will cost a lot.

or

2 would you just like something that fills the role the A500 did, ie play the same sort of games due to similar technical abilities as the most advanced consoles on sale at the time?

What's wrong with just the Amiga? Why does there have to be a "new Amiga"? Seriously, companies like A-eon need to stop trying to leech off the Amiga name and stand on their own merits, if they have any. Being Amiga-like isn't enough?

[DAX]

I'm happy to ascertain that we agree on the fact that we cannot be sure about many things until we actually wait and see.
So i have my hypothesis you have yours.

That said i understand you were talking about Commodore "gamish" HW named Hombre (an home console that was never produced basically
while I was talking about their plans about future Amigas (nothing to do with Hombre) :

1)Hombre: an uncompleted project that had nothing to do with Amiga because (Dave Haynie speaking below):

Strictly speaking, Hombre is not an Amiga chip set.  While it supports some
of the Amiga ideas, it's no more Amiga compatible than an SVGA chip (less,
actually, since all SVGA chips support planar as well as chunky displays,
at least up to 4 bits/pixel).  

and...(Haynie again)

The Amiga OS was not to have
run on this system in any form.  

On the other hand I was talking about the devCon paper done in 1993 more or less simultaneously to Hombre's development starting point which described a similar to X1000 machine:

The  primary goal of an advanced Amiga system can be summed up in one word:  modularity. Such a new system, both logically and physically, is  composed of several interchangable subsystems. No one piece has any  unnatural dependence on any other; interconnections between the system  components have to be based on intentional system standards, not chance  implementation details.

The  motherboard for such a system contains just the basics that will be  needed by every system. This will certainly include a number of basic  I/O chips for the standard ports on that machine.
Not only does this make  motherboard upgrade much easier, but it allows several different  motherboards to be designed using the same plug-in modules, and it  allows Commodore to easily support more options in system and processor  makeup.

If you add to that that not even MS can afford to challenge Ati and Nvidia R&D departments, you can clearly see where this all would have led...

[Fab]

Every Amiga "alternative" has a right to exist and it's own merits on why it should. My biggest pet peeve with the entire community, however, is the fact that there's no camaraderie. There's so many applications for A that aren't on B or C. Sure people are all, "You're welcome to port my code, if you'd like", but there also saying "but I'm not going to do it". I understand why they say, do and feel like that, but the "camps" refuse to just say "hey, we're different, but that just encourages evolution, let's work together and add compatibility between the three to allow even faster development". They would rather pick the other apart, like bitter siblings.

Since you're explicitely referring to one of my previous answers in some other thread, may i remind you once again that I gave the source code of MPlayer MorphOS for AROS, and helped Deadwood to port it (who was much better placed than me to port it, since he can actually run AROS, and also has better knowledge about the OS and its specificities)? I also gave MAME MorphOS sources to another AROS developer, who managed to port it successfully. I can also "call out for bullshit as soon as i see it".

I would do the same for OWB on AROS, if someone motivated enough volunteered to port it. It's not a question of refusing to port it... It's a question of doing it properly.

On the other hand, i would have a serious problem passing my code to people that would get donations (or even commercial outcome) issued from my work (especially since i refuse them).

[runequester]

@ Runequester,

OT, but if you're ever around Burgerville, make sure you have a Tillamook for me.

there's one not too far from my workplace

[the_leander]

That said i understand you were talking about Commodore "gamish" HW named Hombre (an home console that was never produced basically
while I was talking about their plans about future Amigas (nothing to do with Hombre) :

1)Hombre: an uncompleted project that had nothing to do with Amiga because (Dave Haynie speaking below):
and...(Haynie again)

Yes, I've read the comments. Hell I was on Usenet when he initially posted them.

On the other hand I was talking about the devCon paper done in 1993 more or less simultaneously to Hombre's development starting point which described a similar to X1000 machine:

They're talking about the direction the Nyx AAA testbed was leading to. And if you read up on Haynie he states quite clearly on several occasions that AmigaOS was end of life. Commodore were planning on moving to WindowsNT. Guess where that research lead? Hombre.

I've seen the modular approach that was being taken with AAA and it was kind of cool. You would have ended up with something not unlike a modern X86 Micro-ATX board - fairly basic onboard sound, graphics and networking capabilities with some pci (or now pci-e) slots to plug in much more capable components to suite your tastes.

But to try to paint the X1000 as the prodigal son of this line of thinking... Err no. No more than any other x86 motherboard on the market today, because that is basically all it is. Just like the post newbus PPC Macs were.

As for the glue logic and XMOS... The chip itself within a desktop environment appears to offer very very little, potentially even less than having an fpga built onto the board. It can't access system ram and is limited to 64k. I'm sure some clever programmer could make use of it and do some seriously clever demos with one, but for day to day usage it seems a poor fit into the desktop paradigm.

If you add to that that not even MS can afford to challenge Ati and Nvidia R&D departments, you can clearly see where this all would have led...

MS probably could afford it, the question is, why bother to re-invent the wheel? What would Microsoft gain beyond a constant threat of anti-competition filings from the other two companies?

[runequester]

They're talking about the direction the Nyx AAA testbed was leading to. And if you read up on Haynie he states quite clearly on several occasions that AmigaOS was end of life. Commodore were planning on moving to WindowsNT.

The outcry would have been epic

[the_leander]

The outcry would have been epic

Possibly, but at the end of the day AmigaOS was EOL and the engineering folks knew it. To have forged on would have required either going to windows or making a leap as great as MacOS 9 to OSX.

As with everything Commodore - they chose the most "cost effective" option and looked at WindowsNT on PA-RISC.

[DAX]

@The_Leander
I'm not saying it's the prodigal son, only responding to "classic" users that there would've not have been any fabled chipset Amiga machine. And by the way, hombre was WAY behind in schedule, Haynie said:

The design called for two chips...Neither design was finished;

which basically mean all you got there is the AAA situation all over again, too little too late.
The whole chipset idea was to be scrapped as there were graphic processing units manufacturers pumping out new designs every 3 months back then (where there were around 10 different makers).

At the end of the day the X1000 is still more Amiga than anything else, the barebone mobo allow to upgrade several parts in case you upgrade the CPU, (instead of having just a CPU change and keep the old controllers)  Xena could lead to nice ideas, it can still produce some nice Int expansions (XMP), and is something more (not something less) that adds in to the fun.

No matter how you put it, old chipsets are (and were) no more and this is as good as it gets for now.

I underlined that, because both Varisys and A-Eon hinted at this being a beginning not an an end, and since we are just a few months after the settlement it's a nice start, way better than anything we would have seen from C= which as you said, it would have been absolutely nothing, ( just some Wintel clones running NT, yes no Hombre, as it was already obsolete while in highly unfinished state, and would've been scrapped for some cheaper and more performing GPU)

[quenthal]

Speaking as a "classic" and once in a while MOS/AOS4/AROS user:

In some strange way it is odd and at the same time quite the normal reaction x1000 is currently having.

No one probably denies that this is quite expensive piece of hardware. A1000 may have been quite expensive, but at the same time it had many advantages to similarly priced or even more expensive computers of its date. Heck, even A4000T compares better.

Things have changed, and for "mainstream" Amigians using or toying around with classics, MOS, AOS4, AROS etc. haven't been about making the "rational choice" or about different amiga-lie systems being "useful" - at least not for me. I just can't imagine me buying only things that are rational choices or useful. What would be the fun in that? I wouldn't complain if fun things were cheap, but it's my own foolishness that I have chosen this path.

[the_leander]

@The_Leander
I'm not saying it's the prodigal son, only responding to "classic" users that there would've not have been any fabled chipset Amiga machine. And by the way, hombre was WAY behind in schedule, Haynie said:

Hombre was a last ditch effort to try to get some value out of AAA which by the estimates of the day would have been at best on a par with PCs of the day and at worst a generation behind. To be clear: Hombre was built upon the ruins of the AAA hardware.

which basically mean all you got there is the AAA situation all over again, too little too late.
The whole chipset idea was to be scrapped as there were graphic processing units manufacturers pumping out new designs every 3 months back then (where there were around 10 different makers).

Look fella, I lived through this. There is very little you can tell me about what I saw with my own eyes first hand. I'm not some johnny come lately who bought their first Amiga around the time of OS3.9's release. I was there from 1989 onwards.

At the end of the day the X1000 is still more Amiga than anything else

Only if you define Amiga as grossly overpriced, underperforming and tied to a CPU arch that the rest of the desktop world ditched nearly a decade ago.

the barebone mobo allow to upgrade several parts in case you upgrade the CPU, (instead of having just a CPU change and keep the old controllers)

And that is different to every PC ever made since the XT, how, exactly?

Xena could lead to nice ideas, it can still produce some nice Int expansions (XMP), and is something more (not something less) that adds in to the fun.

It's a 100Mbit controller with 64k of onboard memory, no control lines to access anything else and being run on a board whose OS lacks the tools to allow more than single threaded operations.

No matter how you put it, old chipsets are (and were) no more and this is as good as it gets for now.

That is a matter of opinion. One which isn't shared by many.

I underlined that, because both Varisys and A-Eon hinted at this being a beginning not an an end, and since we are just a few months after the settlement it's a nice start, way better than anything we would have seen from C= which as you said, it would have been absolutely nothing

I didn't say that. We would have had nice shiny new computers running a bombproof OS (WinNT was a far superior system to the win9x range most people used during the 90's) on extensable affortable hardware,  without a zillion and one fantasists running around ripping off the community left right and centre, backed up by sychophants too stupid to know they were being conned.

( just some Wintel clones running NT,

Which part of they were marrying up AAA with a PA-RISC wasn't clear? Not intel, PA-RISC.

yes no Hombre, as it was already obsolete while in highly unfinished state,

As a games console it might have given both the Saturn and PS1 a damn good run for their money.

and would've been scrapped for some cheaper and more performing GPU)

Eventually probably, or maybe buying out one of the dozen or so companies producing these shiny new wiz bang GPUs.