Given x1000 news is everywhere.....but nonchalance prevails

[the_leander]

Well  again, it is intended for future opportunities.

It might be because I'm tired, but I'm not getting this.

Could you please explain for me how circa 2002 performance hardware is intended for future opportunities?

[halvliter'n]

Same  here, it does not have to go the same way the hen kicks. So I go also to alternative three.

[Fab]

Reason always loses in amiga land. MorphOS developers tend to belittle AROS, claim that it is messy, that it has no apps, that it is mostly broken etc. Yet, where did they go when they needed to get rid of the need for OS3.1 binaries?

Well, there are still not many apps compared to 3.x, MorphOS or OS4, even if the situation has quite improved in the last months (which might even allow someone to use it for "real", with a few key apps like a browser, a video player, ...).

Obviously they can't be blamed for that. The developers have clearly focused on writing drivers and making the OS run on as much hardware as possible, which is a tedious task, leaving little time to write actual applications, or even polish existing codebase (hence numerous bugs and basic functionality in most components, like console, preferences, desktop, ...).

The situation is the opposite on MorphOS (or even OS4 to some extent), where the supported hardware is quite limited, which gives more time to polish the system, where components have more functionality and where most bugs could be ironed out. And obviously, the fact they had transparent 68k emulation since the start made the initial lack of applications much more bearable (i still don't see AROS janus uae as a real solution for 68k integration, except for games).

This is where the latter approach has an advantage... It gives an usable system (you could always argue on it, but i don't care for daily use, even if it's on outdated hardware. Having a half-finished system on modern hardware can't attract many end users. There was probably noone using exclusively AROS when there was neither a browser nor a video player, for instance.

And of course, you're right that mac hardware for MorphOS or x1000/SAM for OS4 will only help for a couple years. Then drastic changes will have to be made anyway, if they are to survive on modern hardware.

Regarding the comparison with UAE, the answer is easy: OS3.x is dead, and very few (real) applications are still written for it. The development is clearly targetted for the new OSes.

[the_leander]

(i still don't see AROS janus uae as a real solution for 68k integration, except for games).

Janus isn't the only option available for integration within AROS. See here for more details.

Regarding the comparison with UAE, the answer is easy: OS3.x is dead, and almost no applications are written for it anymore. The development is clearly targetted for the new OSes.

That'd be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the vast, vast majority of the Amigas software catalogue wasn't made specifically for the 3.x series. Over and above this, none of the three follow-ons have much by way of software.

[runequester]

Isn't OWB the same browser used for Morph ?

[Fab]

Janus isn't the only option available for integration within AROS. See here for more details.

Well, i thought this was what janus uae was based on. Anyway, same thing. This attempt to integrate UAE transparently seems like a very difficult task, and i doubt it will ever reach the level of integration MorphOS or OS4 can achieve.

That'd be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the vast, vast majority of the Amigas software catalogue wasn't made specifically for the 3.x series. Over and above this, none of the three follow-ons have much by way of software.

I said 3.x, but MorphOS is compatible with previous versions too, as long as they don't do evil stuff.


@RuneRequester

Isn't OWB the same browser used for Morph ?

The name and the engine (WebKit) are the same, but that's it. The UI and features of OWB are totally different on AROS, MorphOS and OS4, some versions being more advanced than others. See http://fabportnawak.free.fr/owb/owb-morphos-1.8.readme feature list: many of the listed features aren't available in the AROS or OS4 versions.

[runequester]

Well, i thought this was what janus uae was based on. Anyway, same thing. This attempt to integrate UAE transparently seems like a very difficult task, and i doubt it will ever reach the level of integration MorphOS or OS4 can achieve.

Any particular reason this would be the case? PowerPC isn't any closer to Turrican 2 than x86 is.
 
 
 

The name and the engine (WebKit) are the same, but that's it. The UI and features of OWB are totally different on AROS, MorphOS and OS4, some versions being more advanced than others. See http://fabportnawak.free.fr/owb/owb-morphos-1.8.readme feature list: many of the listed features aren't available in the AROS or OS4 versions.

interesting stuff, thank you

[dammy]

So AROS has to run a UAE layer to make it work?  Doesn't sound very elegant to me.

Until you realize those games and apps that hit the hardware will run seamlessly in AROS that will not run on 68K emulators found in the PPC Amigaoid OSs.  Add in AROS supports multiple archs, makes it more significant.

[halvliter'n]

@runequester
OWB is a web browser designed for CE devices such as mobile phones, portable media players, Set Top Boxes and TV decoders, and any other consumer electronic product (GPS, home-gateways, Web-radios, PVR, DVD recorders, wireless devices etc.)

And Turrican 2 you can play on WinUAE.

[Fab]

Any particular reason this would be the case? PowerPC isn't any closer to Turrican 2 than x86 is.

First, MorphOS and OS4 don't emulate the chipset, so Turrican would only run through UAE anyway.

Now, for the applications/games that don't rely on amiga chipset (and there are a lot of them), they can run seamlessly on MorphOS, through the integrated 68k emulator and the system's compatible API and ABI (the latter being something AROS doesn't have, and can't easily have, since the x86 endianess isn't the same as the 68k one, which would be a major issue when dealing with system structures, which are unfortunately accessed directly by almost all applications).

[the_leander]

Firstly, sorry this is the link I was aiming for originally. My bad.

 This attempt to integrate UAE transparently seems like a very difficult task,

I imagine it is, but no more so than writing a from scratch emulation layer for MorphOS or OS4 I would imagine. The engine at least is already done. Setting up a layer to pass between native and emulated is underway now as can be seen from the screenshots.

and i doubt it will ever reach the level of integration MorphOS or OS4 can achieve.

As far as I know neither MorphOS or OS4's emulation layers offer chipset support. However as with that link above shows there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Fab]

Firstly, sorry this is the link I was aiming for originally. My bad.

I imagine it is, but no more so than writing a from scratch emulation layer for MorphOS or OS4 I would imagine. The engine at least is already done. Setting up a layer to pass between native and emulated is underway now as can be seen from the screenshots.

As far as I know neither MorphOS or OS4's emulation layers offer chipset support. However as with that link above shows there is more than one way to skin a cat.

We'll see how far this project goes, but let me give a few issues that this UAE implementation currently has (and which might be difficult to resolve):
- different UI style between the native OS and the emulated applications (3.x vs AROS). More generally, the emulated applications don't benefit of any AROS enhancement.
- No transparent drag'n'drop between AROS and UAE.
- All kinds of notifications (DOS or anything else) won't be signaled between AROS and UAE.
- What if you want to run some emulated MUI application on another screen, how will UAE handle that? What will happen to the other applications that should stay on wanderer screen?
- To be seen if the actual implementation shares filesystem, clipboard and so on correctly too.
- Is network support even enabled in this UAE version?

I could probably think of hundreds of other scenarios where you could have similar glitches. Some can probably solved, but you see the kind of problem this solution has to face with.

You're right about MorphOS and OS4 not emulating chipset, but almost all applications requiring it are either games or trackers or paint apps. Most of these would run fullscreen anyway, and they can be integrated "transparently" (according to AROS terminology) by running (or reusing) an UAE instance when doubleclicking them from the host OS.

[EDIT]

I just checked that other link. Need to read about it first before commenting.

[the_leander]

We'll see how far this project goes, but let me give a few issues that this UAE implementation currently has (and which might be difficult to resolve):

Note that the second link (which was the one I should have posted first) is much more in line with the emulation layer offered by both MorphOS and OS4.

- different UI style between the native OS and the emulated applications (3.x vs AROS). More generally, the emulated applications don't benefit of any AROS enhancement.

So long as the AROS enhancement doesn't detract from the functionality I don't see that as being an issue.

- No transparent drag'n'drop between AROS and UAE.
- All kinds of notifications (DOS or anything else) won't be signaled between AROS and UAE.
- What if you want to run some emulated MUI application on another screen, how will UAE handle that? What will happen to the other applications that should stay on wanderer screen?
- To be seen if the actual implementation shares filesystem, clipboard and so on correctly too.
- Is network support even enabled in this UAE version?

Best asked of people actually working on Janus.

I could probably think of hundreds of other scenarios where you could have similar glitches. Some can probably solved, but you see the kind of problem this solution has to face with.

I quite agree it is a huge undertaking. But if done right will offer better support for Amiga software than either MorphOS or OS4 in a transparent way.

Of course, the emumiga project would offer a much simpler solution in line with the other two to bring it up to the same level of compatibility.

[Fab]

Note that the second link (which was the one I should have posted first) is much more in line with the emulation layer offered by both MorphOS and OS4.

Yes, i read a bit about it. It's still very preliminary, but it's more the kind of approach i would expect to achieve a decent integration, indeed. So we'll see how far this project goes, and it will be a huge work too, but definitely interesting.

[B00tDisk]

So AROS has to run a UAE layer to make it work?  Doesn't sound very elegant to me.

How many games on the Amiga (and old applications and tools) break on anything higher than 1.2 or 1.3, requiring ReLoKick or WHDload?  (Hint: Lots).  Making old apps run on newer OS's often isn't "elegant".

[Methuselas]

Since so many of you people, regardless of your "camp", are incapable of listening to reason, I'll let someone else spell it out for you:

All these years, all this time
We have been messing with your mind
you thought us, noble, rad and true
You just don’t have a fucking clue

All the humor, pun, and wit
A heaping, steaming pile of shit
With a smile and a wink
We make believe our poop don’t stink

Rip the system, revolution
Adding fuel to your confusion
Gobble up the crap we feed you
We don’t really love and need you

We just want your cold hard cash
Get our hands into your stash
Now show up, listen, and behold
Finally the truth be told

We’re only in it for the money
To dip our fingers in your honey
We pretend to no end
We are bitches for your riches

Blindsided by audacity
Of a handsome crook from Germany
A million sheets of patient paper
Chronicle his every caper
 
You never had us figured out
Lend stature, relevance and clout
Even called us pioneers,
When really we were privateers

You reveled in our plagiarism
Joined into the organism
Your pompousness and indecorum
Spewed on every online forum

How you dribbled, how you drooled
Priceless how we had you fooled
We hijacked your bedazzled souls
For ransom to be paid in gold

We’re only in it for the money
To dip our fingers in your honey
We pretend to no end
We are bitches for your riches

We’re only in it for the gain
Sex and drugs, and rock and roll fame
To parade the charade
We are jammin' for your mammon
We’re only in it for the encore
We want it all, and then some more
Men of deeds for proceeds
Prime booty is our duty

We just want your cold hard cash
Get our hands into your stash
Now show up, listen, and behold
Finally the truth be told

We’re only in it for returns
The greased palm never burns
Can’t get enough to stuff
The orifice of avarice

We’re only in it for the money
To dip our fingers in your honey
We pretend to no end
We are bitches for your riches

We are bitches for your riches


*  *  *

Sascha Konietzko wrote this about the "fans" of KMFDM, on how they never quite got the message and how they used the band for their own, personal "agendas", which caused a lot of negative press and liability concerning the band. Numerous times, KMFDM has been at the forefront of negative press concerning stupidity of ignorant individuals (Columbine is a good example), when all they wanted to do was create music.

I think this song is rather poignant, as if you actually read into the lyrics, you can see what's happened in Amiga-Land for the past 10 years. It all started with a truck driver, named Big Mac, who had no idea how to run a company, much less what the original Amiga could do. What he saw, was money and he attempted to bleed the disenfranchised of everything they had, in the name of hope.

*EVERY* camp has its own "agenda". They're going to bash, scratch and claw the others to prove they're the "chosen successor", when in reality not a single one of them is truly "Amigan". They all do it their own way, but lets be honest, each one has a little piece of the other in it, in some way or another. They're all siblings, mainly due to AROS, but ironically, AROS is considered the "red-headed stepchild" of the three "brothers".

The X1000 is a commercial failure. It's target audience is the developers, not the community whole and if you can't see that, you're blind. It's over-priced and I think the several complaints about it being "north of 1500" sums it up. I could give you people a rundown of supply and demand, Marketing and Economics 101, but it's a waste of breath on my part, as the majority of you wouldn't even listen and I hate wasting my time.

So continue to fight, continue to brag about your sub-par OS being "the best", continue to spend exorbitant amounts of money on a "hobby", knowing each party has their grubby, little fingers in the pot as much as possible, bleeding you for very little in return and most of all continue to make me come here, to quietly laugh at and mock you for your rose-colored glasses, because most of you are incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.

Enjoy!

PS - I'd like to point out, 'cos unlike some of you, I've been around here forever and pay attention to just about everything, that MorphOS was the original "successor" to OS3.9, when Big Mac took over. The reason it never happened was 'cos Genesi refused to brand the original Pegasos motherboard as "Amiga Only", intending to sell it as an alternative motherboard for "alternative" operating systems. That meant that Big Mac couldn't make any money off any Pegasos mobo that was sold with Linux.

Funny how no matter what, greed, subversion and guile always seem to play into the "future" (however pathetic that may be) of the Amiga......


:laughing: