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Offline the_leander

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #284 from previous page: June 21, 2010, 07:40:59 PM »
Quote from: DAX;566196

You seem to forget that having a system with no expandable GFX card is way more limiting than the lack of VMX, I would take a powerful PCI-E card over that any day (much more potential, as in INFINITE more potential).


I disagree. It's all well and good having "INFINITE" potential (which actually isn't), but what value is it if you've neither the software nor the drivers to make use of it?

Quote from: DAX;566196

I didn't blindly believed anything (ho and summer anyway, finishes September 20th, some 3 months from now).


If you seriously think that you will get a final, shipping X1000 in 3 months from now you should think about stopping whatever it is you're huffing.

Quote from: DAX;566196

Keep your love for dead ends for yourself ;)


Because the X1000, with it's PA6T cpu totally isn't a dead end...

Quote from: DAX;566196

You should talk with Vidarh about this, he is not convinced it is the only solution, not one bit.


There are some people who truly believe that anything more advanced than 8bit was a bad idea. Doesn't make it true however.

Quote from: DAX;566196

Amiga back comers don't care about that, i run Blender a modern software that needs a modern API and it is ROCK SOLID. Never crashes even after an 8 hour render I can pick it up and continue. Guess that many other modern app will work the same without any mystical api change (just what's needed is the motto :))


Which is fine up until you get an application that haemorages memory... Like Firefox or WebKit. Firing up either of these on a system with little effective memory protection is just asking for trouble.

Quote from: DAX;566196

Crumb, can you just stop being antagonistic? You know the graphics subsystem isn't there, they were using a 33Mhz radeon 9200 on debug.


The 9200 came in 250 and 300Mhz flavours. If yours is running at 33Mhz you have serious issues over and above the fact that you were running your OS with full debugging enabled on it's public debut.

Quote from: DAX;566196

The only way for MOS and AOS to get along is to progress on their own and for users to stop being antagonistic.


Aparently pointing out the truth is considered antagonistic these days.
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Offline Jakodemus

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #285 on: June 21, 2010, 07:57:37 PM »
These endless wars tend to get little boring. Everybody knows MorphOS is better than AOS4, but it is fruitless to argue with these fanatics. Maybe we all should use our precious time to something more usefull than flamewars?
 

Offline DAX

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #286 on: June 21, 2010, 07:57:56 PM »
Quote from: Fab;566207
Just for the record, the x1000 is also based on Apple scrap CPU. How do you feel about that? I wouldn't care, but you certainly should. :)
You are wrong on this one, the CPU was developed before the buy out and Apple even had to concede on any sale of this CPU to third parties. Moreover it is produced elsewhere.
So you have
1) Designed when there was no Apple
2) Made elsewhere certainly not by Apple
3) Sold without Apple having decided anything.

So much so for an Apple CPU...
 

Offline DAX

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #287 on: June 21, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »
Leander, I'm tired, I can reply 12 times to anything you wrote (usual BS) but i'm out to dinner, just let Crumb reply for himself next time, I know he can...
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #288 on: June 21, 2010, 09:38:57 PM »
Quote from: DAX;566214
You are wrong on this one, the CPU was developed before the buy out and Apple even had to concede on any sale of this CPU to third parties.


It should also be noted that there is no requirement for PA Semi to continue to develop the design beyond this chip. In fact from what I've seen they've been concentrating on ARM parts ever since Apple took them over.

So the chip is as EOL as the 68060 was for the 68k line.

Nice how history repeats itself, eh? Apparently though the Amiga community didn't learn the lessons inherent in the A1 the first time around.

Quote from: DAX;566214

1) Designed when there was no Apple


The PA6T was designed before 1976? Holy crap why didn't PA Semi sell it back then?! :lol:

Quote from: DAX;566214

2) Made elsewhere certainly not by Apple


Texas Instruments are the likely manufacturer according to wikipedia.

Quote from: DAX;566214

So much so for an Apple CPU...


They own the company and the IP, so it is now in effect an Apple CPU.

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I can reply 12 times to anything you wrote (usual BS)


You can reply any number of times, but repeating half truths and outright falsehoods doesn't make them true.

You know, it was the impending clusterf^ck that was the launch of the A1 that caused me to decommission my Amigas and move onto BeOS and then later Linux. I watched with fascination from the outside as zealots like yourself made many of the justifications for the high price of the A1 nearly 6 years ago. Those justifications weren't true then and they aren't now.  The software that they claimed would magically appear never really did and thanks to the gross mismanagement of Hyperion and the staggering incompetence of Amiga.inc, the vast majority of development talent that existed 10 years ago will never again write a single line of code for the Amiga.

So we're now looking at an even greater foulup with the X1000, 3 times the cost of the A1 its replacing and with only a scant handful of applications ever written for its primary OS (seriously, Zeta had more apps written for and ported to it in it's short life than OS4 has had ever.) and an OS itself that seems to have serious issues with things like USB2.0, years after these issues were supposedly fixed.
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Offline DAX

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #289 on: June 21, 2010, 10:16:54 PM »
Quote
I disagree. It's all well and good having "INFINITE" potential (which actually isn't), but what value is it if you've neither the software nor the drivers to make use of it?
And the solution is to resign ourselves to the idea that we will never ever get good 3D drivers right?
Anyway Rogue said their gonna work on expanding OS4 after the X1000 port and he said he knows Graphics are top priority.
We'll see about that...



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If you seriously think that you will get a final, shipping X1000 in 3 months from now you should think about stopping whatever it is you're huffing.
:lol:
I don't actually (but who knows? :))  Seriously though, I will be glad to buy it for Christmas.


Quote
Because the X1000, with it's PA6T cpu totally isn't a dead end.
The whole WILL to design new HW it's not a dead end, PAsemi CPU might come and go, but if there is the "will" they will find new solutions.
When there is no will (or possibility as in MOS case) there can't be solutions.


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There are some people who truly believe that anything more advanced than 8bit was a bad idea. Doesn't make it true however.
Vidarh is a top programmer.


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Which is fine up until you get an application that haemorages memory... Like Firefox or WebKit. Firing up either of these on a system with little effective memory protection is just asking for trouble.
When I will get the final version I will let you know how it fares ;)



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The 9200 came in 250 and 300Mhz flavours. If yours is running at 33Mhz you have serious issues over and above the fact that you were running your OS with full debugging enabled on it's public debut.
typo there, what I meant is it was running on a 33Mhz standard PCI bus with a ton of debug code running, the final version will have a PCI-E 16X R700 card and no debug code.


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Aparently pointing out the truth is considered antagonistic these days.
you wish ;)
Antagonistic is when a very smart individual as Crumb (I know he is) start pointing out troubles he knows exactly the reason why. Antagonistic is when a guy asks ONLY for OS4 information AFTER he already asked about MOS in another thread (and where the MOS crowd happily participated) and someone hijacks said OS4 thread even after being told by the starter he isn't interested, and after being politely asked by a moderator to quit it (I don't mean Crumb here).

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You know, it was the impending clusterf^ck that was the launch of the A1  that caused me to decommission my Amigas and move onto BeOS and then  later Linux. I watched with fascination from the outside as zealots  like yourself made many of the justifications for the high price of the  A1 nearly 6 years ago. Those justifications weren't true then and they  aren't now.  The software that they claimed would magically appear never  really did and thanks to the gross mismanagement of Hyperion and the  staggering incompetence of Amiga.inc, the vast majority of development  talent that existed 10 years ago will never again write a single line of  code for the Amiga.

So we're now looking at an even greater foulup with the X1000, 3 times  the cost of the A1 its replacing and with only a scant handful of  applications ever written for its primary OS (seriously, Zeta had more  apps written for and ported to it in it's short life than OS4 has had  ever.) and an OS itself that seems to have serious issues with things  like USB2.0, years after these issues were supposedly fixed.        
The X1000 it's not the original AmigaOne, those making it know the market they're getting into, they know is broken into "factions", they know it's small.
OS4 development was spotty at best during the last several years, everything was frozen and the developers found themselves in a situation where if they worked hard, they could've lost it (for nothing) so they probably worked at Amiga unrelated stuff for a large part of that time period, giving Amiga some spare time.
Now they own what they are working on, and they are heavy at work on the X1000 port and the Friedens are also doing Timberwolf. It's a whole different commitment and I believe it will bring its fruits. Time will tell.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 10:20:44 PM by DAX »
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #290 on: June 21, 2010, 10:34:51 PM »
Quote from: DAX;566196
last time we talked all you had was OS4 alpha experience since when you became a 4.1 final user?


I have explained it in various posts but it seems you missed it.

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And you think wrong, as all Sam533, Sam667 and Sam800 are sold out with a few remaining 733. Much more than towered 4000 system on ebay (very sporadic and selling around 2 pieces per year).


Selling all units isn't difficult when you only produce a handful of boards.

Quote

You seem to forget that having a system with no expandable GFX card is way more limiting than the lack of VMX, I would take a powerful PCI-E card over that any day (much more potential, as in INFINITE more potential).


Peg2 has a nice AGP slot (it's the model that was released 5 years before Sam). Mac Mini has AGPx4. FYI PCI-express with 4 lanes has more or less same bandwitch as AGPx4. I'm using a 64MB Radeon on my Mac Mini G4 and never ran out of gfx ram.

Quote

I didn't blindly believed anything (ho and summer anyway, finishes September 20th, some 3 months from now).


In case you have missed it, it has been confirmed that x1000 will be for sale around/earlier than christmas

Quote

Tell me where you did get the 20 number, I'm curious...


There was an announcement about requiring a low number of people like that (could be 30 perhaps) to produce certain Sam model, otherwise ACube wouldn't do it. Check out old news.

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Keep your love for dead ends for yourself ;)


PPC is a dead end and AmigaOS API is a dead end

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We'll see about that, 2 of my friends I'm trying to convince to come back tryed Icaros desktop and found it of very little use, while they are interested in AmigaOS, you see "free" not interested at all (maybe not everyone runs his life on 3rd world country budgets as to be that concerned about money).


I don't try to "convince" friends, I just show them the options, tell them the problems they'll find, the cool positive things about the system and let them choose. If you go out on holidays let them have your machine one week to see if that fits their needs. It's more fair than "convincing" them. Most of friends may think AmigaOS3.x+AmiKit/MorphOS/AROS/OS4 is cool but just for a short time... when they get used to the fast response they start to request their usual wintel apps.

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You should talk with Vidarh about this, he is not convinced it is the only solution, not one bit.


So PPC is not a dead end? Yeah sure.

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Amiga back comers don't care about that, i run Blender a modern software that needs a modern API and it is ROCK SOLID. Never crashes even after an 8 hour render I can pick it up and continue. Guess that many other modern app will work the same without any mystical api change (just what's needed is the motto :))


It seems you don't understand that any program can overwrite the memory of each other. The API is flawed. It doesn't matter if you port MS Office using MS original sources, AmigaOS API will still be flawed. You can produce decent software for AmigaOS but that won't prevent that any app can overwrite your data.

Quote

Both OSs have along way to go, when one will claim it can do anything the "others" can, we'll talk about it. I believe AOS will get there first now that it is free to run and commercial partnerships can be formed, we'll see about this down the line...


Leaving apart that nonsense (in order to modernize AmigaOS core you would need to get rid of AmigaOS API and make an entire new OS that almost doesn't share a line of code)... there's little that indicates that Hyperion is up the task of designing a new modern API for AmigaOS. They seriously lack resources. The gfx system is primitive, audio is the same, WB is slightly updated but these changes are mostly cosmetical, there's still the old reaction... these things are points that Friedens want to update since the beginning but they lack the human resources to do it

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Crumb, can you just stop being antagonistic? You know the graphics subsystem isn't there, they were using a 33Mhz radeon 9200 on debug.


A Radeon9200 flies with q3 even if you use a 33Mhz pci slot. It shows that management doesn't know very well what they are doing (or amiga software quality standards are becoming very low).

Quote

You know it and keep attacking the X1000, give these guys a break.


Since most os4 users drag that non-existing boards to any conversation and dare to compare its fantasy performance to existing hardware I don't see why not talking about x1000 and discussing its availability and real performance too.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #291 on: June 21, 2010, 11:03:47 PM »
Quote from: DAX;566203
The problem at amiga.org is that there are some MOS "professionals" spamming every AOS4 thread and deliberately changing the topic, while AmigaOS expert don't visit here since forever (just a very few, maybe because it is becoming similar to moo bunny every day that passes).


There has never been any problem at amiga.org. It's funny because when os4 fanatics find any objection to price/features/performance of OS4 software/hardware they get angry and start to claim the site has a problem.

It seems you just have joined amiga.org to practice some red trolling.

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Oh and the reason why people prefer AmigaOS over MOS


It's funny because most of Amiga users I know prefer MorphOS to OS4.

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is the same I told Crumb, they all have a modern system,


A G2 cpu five years later than peg2/g4 is "modern"? yeah right.

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so they are not as desperate as you think for a feature or two


MorphOS2.0 is more complete featurewise, faster and smoother. Any part of it. It's not just "one feature or two". From Ambient to preferences, from I/O support to bundled tools.

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, don't be surprised if they don't care for an unofficial project that runs on Apple scraps.


Running in various hardware platforms and also on Apple hardware is an advantage. I bet you'll never ever use an AmigaOS4.x laptop. Well, AROS users can enjoy that right now. OS3.x users too through emulation. And MorphOS users are probably next.

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What they care is for Amiga to have dignified future made of front page news items (see if you can get that with your emac port) and dedicated machines.


They remember Amiga and think about a computer with great price performance ratio that had killer apps and great games. They care (like most people do) about the software they run and its stability. They probably don't care about announcements of announcements, web mistery games, old ppc technology at premium prices and png icons. And you can bet they like to pay for the product they are going to use right now and they are not interested in buying overpriced obsolete hardware to fund future decent hardware

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The features will come and i bet that now that AOS is free to run and form commercial partnerships, will reach a "decent point" far earlier than any other Amiga-like option.it's inevitable.


Your vision of amiga market and community is seriously distorted.

What commercial partnerships? Do you honestly think OS4.x has anything commercially interesting? that's naive at best. Any company will prefer to invest on a Linux/BSD distro that can be tuned to do what OS4 does but better instead of being at mercy of a small company that lacks hardware to run on.

What features are you talking about? There are limitations with AmigaOS API that can't be surpassed unless they get rid of compatibility with ALL previous versions and leave that stuff on a "compatibility box".

It's easier that AROS surpasses both OS4 and MorphOS in the future since it runs on x86 (as well as other cpus), the development&user numbers increase... and given it's opensource nature it's possible to test what may never be done on OS4 (or MorphOS) due to lack of resources.
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Offline kolla

Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #292 on: June 21, 2010, 11:19:02 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;566250
It's funny because most of Amiga users I know prefer MorphOS to OS4.

And I know a lot more people who are interested in minimig/aga (fpgaarcade) and natami than morphos and os4 all together - myself included.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #293 on: June 21, 2010, 11:21:17 PM »
Quote
It's funny because most of Amiga users I know prefer MorphOS to OS4.

Isn't that a completely subjective view? Most Amiga users I know aren't bothered about the "next gen" even one tiny bit. I'm somewhat the odd one out in even having an interest.
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Offline DAX

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #294 on: June 21, 2010, 11:21:30 PM »
Quote
I have explained it in various posts but it seems you missed it.
indeed, refresh my memory



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Selling all units isn't difficult when you only produce a handful of boards.
Considering that the last U-boot for sam I got, was downloaded by 600+people and that I know of many that did not (I didn't too for the last up) it would seem that your 20 estimate is a little far fetched, try somewhere near 1000 next time you'll be far closer.
Ah and by the way, even at 20 it would still be far more than classic Amiga system off ebay, which would mean they succeeded just the same.



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Peg2 has a nice AGP slot (it's the model that was released 5 years before Sam). Mac Mini has AGPx4. FYI PCI-express with 4 lanes has more or less same bandwitch as AGPx4. I'm using a 64MB Radeon on my Mac Mini G4 and never ran out of gfx ram.
I was talking about emac and mac mini that doesn't support any full lengh modern card.
Lack of Vram is the least of the problem those machine have and will have in the future. and the reason MOS isn't going anywhere.


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In case you have missed it, it has been confirmed that x1000 will be for sale around/earlier than christmas
And?


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There was an announcement about requiring a low number of people like that (could be 30 perhaps) to produce certain Sam model, otherwise ACube wouldn't do it. Check out old news.
This will win as the most detailed and backed up post of the century :lol:


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PPC is a dead end and AmigaOS API is a dead end
PPC has so much life in it you cannot even begin to understand. Not only IBM is developing ne CPus for next generation consoles as we speak (both MS and Nintendo) but they are also developing new ones such as Power7.
And there are more in the pipe-line at AMCC as well, next up is a quad core Titan with 2MB cache.
just to name a few...


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I don't try to "convince" friends, I just show them the options, tell them the problems they'll find, the cool positive things about the system and let them choose. If you go out on holidays let them have your machine one week to see if that fits their needs. It's more fair than "convincing" them. Most of friends may think AmigaOS3.x+AmiKit/MorphOS/AROS/OS4 is cool but just for a short time... when they get used to the fast response they start to request their usual wintel apps.
You got me wrong there, I am glad if they come back using ANY flavor (MOS included, but I don't have one) and I suggest to them to try Icaros pointing them to its website.
My cousin is using it a little (he was with me at Pianeta and spoke with Paolone too), others are not interested but are now following the Amiga scene on italian sites (Amiganews in particular).



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So PPC is not a dead end? Yeah sure.
No, actually it's not (see above).

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It seems you don't understand that any program can overwrite the memory of each other. The API is flawed. It doesn't matter if you port MS Office using MS original sources, AmigaOS API will still be flawed. You can produce decent software for AmigaOS but that won't prevent that any app can overwrite your data.
I understand very well, the problem is, well written application don't do that, I invited you several times to go over at natami forums and talk about this with Gunnar.
Anyway talk with Vidarh about implementing MP without re-writing the whole OS, he will enlighten you.


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Leaving apart that nonsense (in order to modernize AmigaOS core you would need to get rid of AmigaOS API and make an entire new OS that almost doesn't share a line of code)... there's little that indicates that Hyperion is up the task of designing a new modern API for AmigaOS. They seriously lack resources. The gfx system is primitive, audio is the same, WB is slightly updated but these changes are mostly cosmetical, there's still the old reaction... these things are points that Friedens want to update since the beginning but they lack the human resources to do it
replied above to the same, i won't repeat myself.

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A Radeon9200 flies with q3 even if you use a 33Mhz pci slot. It shows that management doesn't know very well what they are doing (or amiga software quality standards are becoming very low).
Look, let's cut the cr*ap, I get much more than that on my system, don't doubt one bit it will play great on the X1000

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Since most os4 users drag that non-existing boards to any conversation and dare to compare its fantasy performance to existing hardware I don't see why not talking about x1000 and discussing its availability and real performance too.
Maybe you don't seem to notice that OS4 users talk about that in friendship among them and they might mention the same products to you (or others) only AFTER you hijack the thread.
Try not doing it for a change, see what happens...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #295 on: June 21, 2010, 11:24:24 PM »
PPC is not "dead end" overall, it's jut not used much in desktop machines.

As an embedded CPU, you'll find it in network hardware, signal processing and control systems all over the place.
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Offline Akiko

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #296 on: June 21, 2010, 11:28:54 PM »
[
Quote from: Crumb;566250
There has never been any problem at amiga.org. It's funny because when os4 fanatics find any objection to price/features/performance of OS4 software/hardware they get angry and start to claim the site has a problem.

It seems you just have joined amiga.org to practice some red trolling..


Ever heard the phrase of "The pot calling the kettle black" ?
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #297 on: June 21, 2010, 11:35:13 PM »
Quote from: DAX;566239
And the solution is to resign ourselves to the idea that we will never ever get good 3D drivers right?


due to the inability to produce any working 3d driver for anything faster than a Radeon9000PRO there's no much that invites us to believe that there will be great 3D support for more complex modern cards. Existing 3D drivers aren't exactly optimized so expect one half or one third of normal gfx card performance.

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Anyway Rogue said their gonna work on expanding OS4 after the X1000 port and he said he knows Graphics are top priority.


And also WB. He has repeated that since A1 times.

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I don't actually (but who knows? :))  Seriously though, I will be glad to buy it for Christmas.


And I hope you can buy it. The hardware manofacturer seems serious but there's little time and I'm unsure about motherboard support. I guess we'll see a plain standard OS4.1.x version without 64bit&SMP support but I would be happy to be wrong.

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The whole WILL to design new HW it's not a dead end, PAsemi CPU might come and go, but if there is the "will" they will find new solutions.


As much as I like PPC, it's dead end for desktop. It forces us to use slower and more expensive cpus. My personal favourite when Peg2 was discontinued was MPC8641D or a tetra-g5 but oh well.

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When there is no will (or possibility as in MOS case) there can't be solutions.


It seems you don't understand MorphOS Team is not a hardware company. They produce software. The problem for OS4 is that Hyperion Management decided to earn money with hardware and that affected their view, Ben Hermans thought he could get extra money killing Moana and now they are losing users who would never spend more than 500 Euros on a board.

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Vidarh is a top programmer.


AFAIK he has not created an AmigaOS compatible OS and it has been explained to him why his ideas wouldn't work. He can be a good programmer but intelligent people also makes mistakes and can take wrong choices.

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Antagonistic is when a very smart individual as Crumb (I know he is) start pointing out troubles he knows exactly the reason why.


Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when some people try to convince others these problems don't exist.

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Antagonistic is when a guy asks ONLY for OS4 information AFTER he already asked about MOS in another thread (and where the MOS crowd happily participated) and someone hijacks said OS4 thread even after being told by the starter he isn't interested, and after being politely asked by a moderator to quit it (I don't mean Crumb here).


Well, It's normal to reply other users (like Varthal), since the topic is interesting and it's related to the original question (even if some people don't agree) I think it would be odd to stop the conversation suddenly.

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The X1000 it's not the original AmigaOne, those making it know the market they're getting into, they know is broken into "factions", they know it's small.


Eyetech also did. They had bad luck with "Escena" and later when the idea of a big motherboard/cpu accelerator that could be attached to an A1200 they used MAI motherboards instead of asking DCE to design and build it. They would have had problems with ArticiaS anyway so it doesn't matter much.

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OS4 development was spotty at best during the last several years, everything was frozen and the developers found themselves in a situation where if they worked hard, they could've lost it (for nothing)


wrong. Your part of the development being "frozen" is highly innacurate. It was quite active with new components released *every* day.

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so they probably worked at Amiga unrelated stuff for a large part of that time period, giving Amiga some spare time.


AFAIK that's still true for most of them.

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Now they own what they are working on,


They always acted like they owned it, releasing it for uA1, Sam and Peg2 even thought they were not exactly allowed to do that... but their management never cared :-)
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Offline Crumb

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Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #298 on: June 21, 2010, 11:39:56 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;566255
Isn't that a completely subjective view? Most Amiga users I know aren't bothered about the "next gen" even one tiny bit. I'm somewhat the odd one out in even having an interest.


Sure it's subjetive, that's why I used "most amigans I know" instead of "most amigans". And yes, there's probably more amigans interested on classics than on any ppc hardware.

@kolla

sure, but even those without MorphOS machines that are more interested on AGA usually agree prefering MorphOS to OS4.
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Offline kolla

Re: How is OS4 ?
« Reply #299 on: June 21, 2010, 11:43:52 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;566264
sure, but even those without MorphOS machines that are more interested on AGA usually agree prefering MorphOS to OS4.

No, they usually dont know of either, and when informed, they find them both pointless.
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A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
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