Interview with Trevor Dickinson

[Piru]

The only issue I see with the second hand MAC idea is that I'm not sure for how long the prices would stay low, nor for how long they'd still be widely available.

They'll easily outlive any custom amiga HW offerings. Try to find AmigaONE from Ebay. Now try to find Mac Mini G4 from Ebay.

See?

If OS4 were released for old MAC systems then potentially there could be a "mad dash" for them on Ebay and that itself would push up the prices, especially if the MAC people got wind of their new-found desirable status.

The number of PowerPC Macintosh hardware easily outnumbers any potential userbase for AmigaOS4, and thus the prices would stay reasonable.

There is also the issue that the MAC systems are less powerful than the Amiga machine we're likely to see from AEON and a lot less expandable.

That remains to be seen. 1.5GHz G4 isn't to be sneezed at, especially when MorphOS is so much faster than OS4 on the same HW. Later MorphOS is probably going to support even faster Macintosh hardware (I have a 1.67GHz powerbook running MorphOS already... but when that will be available for end users remains to be seen).

Also, the initial OS4 will use only one of the cores, and is likely to run in 32bit mode, and there won't be 3d acceleration for the included ATI card. That's somewhat of a bummer if you compare it against the Mac MorphOS offerings.

Expandability isn't much of an issue since the HW driver support for all amigoid systems is abysmal anyway. OS4 still lacks proper USB2 drivers for example.

Also, if the X1000 turns out to be well accepted by the Amiga community, it could be securing future hardware developments.

Even if the whole remaining Amiga community would get one it'd still be highly debatable if the project would be profitable. Yes, it really is that bad. HW projects are insanely expensive to pull off.

[dammy]

1500 ouch!! I think I better rush my wallet to emergency.
They will probably get about 5 sales. I hope that covers their investment.

I'd bet somewhere between 200 and 350 total sales for the X1000 which would be a fatal disaster.

[Karlos]

Also, the initial OS4 will use only one of the cores, and is likely to run in 32bit mode, and there won't be 3d acceleration for the included ATI card. That's somewhat of a bummer if you compare it against the Mac MorphOS offerings.

That presupposes that the above situation will not change. I would be surprised if someone had gone to the effort of building new hardware, in a market as fragile as this one, without making sure the hardware could be properly utilised by the OS either on release, or without a serious feasibility study as to whether or not the OS can move in that direction.

You can cite the USB as a precedent, of course, but underutilizing USB is a far less serious waste of resources than running a 32-bit only uniprocessor OS on a dual core 64-bit CPU with 4 DIMM slots available to it. At least one of those issues has been mentioned previously (SMP).

[guest7146]

Also, the initial OS4 will use only one of the cores, and is likely to run in 32bit mode, and there won't be 3d acceleration for the included ATI card.

Yes, that is correct, but it is the intention of the OS4 Dev team to implement these features in the future.  The migration to 64-bit and also multiple cores are very significant milestones so I think it's fair that a relatively small dev team with limited resources are going to take quite some time to pull it off.  In the meantime, at least we'll have the necessary hardware to benefit from these features as and when they become available.
It would be no good Hyperion releasing an update supporting dual core if nobody in the Amiga community had a dual core machine to use.  This way they can target their development to a specific platform that they know will be in use by people interested in AmigaOS.  I think this is the only realistic way they could move things forwards.

 

1.5GHz G4 isn't to be sneezed at, especially when MorphOS is so much  faster than OS4 on the same HW. Later MorphOS is probably going to  support even faster Macintosh hardware

Well, if MorphOS is your main interest then you're already in a position to use good, cheap, second hand Mac hardware and as such you shouldn't be too disappointed that OS4 isn't going to run on it? It's clear to me that >£1500 for a system that runs OS4 isn't going to make much sense to you if your main interest is MorphOS and you've already bought some MAC hardware to run it on.  That's fine.  Good luck to MorphOS, I hope it runs very well on those machines and I hope people get a lot of fun out of it.
But, it seems to me that some people who promote MorphOS are a little disgruntled about the X1000 announcement because they don't want a situation where OS4 can be considered to be running on better hardware than MorphOS.  Of course, nobody on the MorphOS side is going to admit to that, but it's certainly the impression I get from some people.  I don't understand why, because as long as you're getting cheap MAC hardware to run your OS on (which, as you pointed out, the performance is not to be sneezed at - it's pretty damned good), then you should just be happy and content with that.  If other people are willing to pay >£1500 for the X1000 system to run OS4 on, and you don't want it anyway, then why should you feel the need to pour scorn on it?

That's the bit I don't understand.  But there you go.  I'm sure if it were the other way around (MorphOS guys getting a nice £1500 system to run their OS on) it would be some individuals on the AmigaOS side of the fence trying to down play it and ridicule it instead.  That's life.

AH.

[EDanaII]

Eh, if you ain't gettin' it, AH, 'cause you don't _want_ to get it. Sorry to be blunt, but that's how I'm seein' your responses.

The majority of us that don't like the X1000's price don't criticize it because we love MorphOS (I'm in the x86 camp), we do it because, and I know this is hard to see: we don't like the _PRICE._

It's really very simple: In order for AmigaOS to be a viable OS again, it needs a user base. That will bring more developers, which will attract more users. More users, more developers, which will lead to more users, followed by developers. Etc, etc, etc...

And the best way to get the ol' ball rollin' is _hardware everyone can afford._

This isn't very complicated at all, but some people see only what they want to see.

[guest7146]

And the best way to get the ol' ball rollin' is _hardware everyone can afford._

This isn't very complicated at all, but some people see only what they want to see.

Well, there is already hardware for AmigaOS that people can afford.  That's what the entry level SAM systems are for.  I suppose you could still critisise the SAM systems as being expensive if you're going to compare their performance/price ratio, but again that comes down to economies of scale and there's nothing we can do about that right now.  But, the fact remains, there are already affordable alternatives to run AmigaOS4 on if people prefer to go down that route.  The X1000 isn't cheap because it's a high end system and, in small market like this, it's going to command high prices.  Still, even those prices aren't too bad when you consider what we're already putting up with on the second hand Amiga accelerator market.

AH.

[Karlos]

They'll easily outlive any custom amiga HW offerings. Try to find AmigaONE from Ebay. Now try to find Mac Mini G4 from Ebay.

In all fairness, this isn't really about hardware longevity as it is numbers, is it?

You can find a deluge of second hand PPC macs simply because they were turned out in far larger numbers (than any PPC amiga hardware) to begin with and then rendered obsolete amongst their user base overnight by an architecture switch.

In comparison, PPC-based amiga machines (A1 - all flavours, Peg, Peg 2, Efika, Sam etc) have been produced in much smaller numbers. Most of the people that have bought them tend to keep them and whilst there has been a fair attrition rate on some of the old A1 / Peg 1 machines, it's probably fair to say most of them are still working. They just aren't for sale.

[Piru]

Yes, that is correct, but it is the intention of the OS4 Dev team to implement these features in the future.

Like the 3D system overhaul that has been dragging for years now? Or the inability to get even 8500/9100 3D working with the current system? The ATI card intended to be used with X1000 currently has only basic 2D support. It doesn't look too bright IMHO.

The migration to 64-bit and also multiple cores are very significant milestones so I think it's fair that a relatively small dev team with limited resources are going to take quite some time to pull it off. In the meantime, at least we'll have the necessary hardware to benefit from these features as and when they become available.

That somewhat reminds me of people getting earlybird setups to run Linux. I would never do that, get extremely expensive hardware to limp by with fraction of the HW capabilities.

It would be no good Hyperion releasing an update supporting dual core if nobody in the Amiga community had a dual core machine to use. This way they can target their development to a specific platform that they know will be in use by people interested in AmigaOS. I think this is the only realistic way they could move things forwards.

Well obviously they think that they can. I don't. The 64bit target will just splinter their platform even more. It already is split into small sections, for instance ones with Altivec and ones without. With such hideously expensive platform they'll be driving themselves into corner they can't back out of.

Well, if MorphOS is your main interest then you're already in a position to use good, cheap, second hand Mac hardware and as such you shouldn't be too disappointed that OS4 isn't going to run on it?

Correct, I am not disappointed. I know a lot of OS4 users are. It's evident enough looking at the reception the Mac mini leak got. It seems the conditioning has now worked though. The new mantra "2nd hand is evil, must have new hw" seems to have been conditioned into the minds of the remaining faithfuls.

It's clear to me that >£1500 for a system that runs OS4 isn't going to make much sense to you if your main interest is MorphOS and you've already bought some MAC hardware to run it on. That's fine. Good luck to MorphOS, I hope it runs very well on those machines and I hope people get a lot of fun out of it.

It runs great and I'm doing my best to make it run even better.

But, it seems to me that some people who promote MorphOS are a little disgruntled about the X1000 announcement because they don't want a situation where OS4 can be considered to be running on better hardware than MorphOS.

It would seem like that for some, yes.

Of course, nobody on the MorphOS side is going to admit to that, but it's certainly the impression I get from some people.  I don't understand why, because as long as you're getting cheap MAC hardware to run your OS on (which, as you pointed out, the performance is not to be sneezed at - it's pretty damned good), then you should just be happy and content with that.

They're probably worried OS4 users are going for yet another "trap", whatever that means. Like they were warned of the problems of the Articia. Those warnings were blatantly ignored, while now it's an accepted fact that Articia was a major disaster. The whole quality issues of the original AmigaOne series were major contributing factor to failure of the project (yes, I consider it a failure: For instance manufacturer warranties weren't respected and the dealers were left to carry the burden. This isn't something that is recalled fondly among the dealers I can reassure you).

If other people are willing to pay >£1500 for the X1000 system to run OS4 on, and you don't want it anyway, then why should you feel the need to pour scorn on it?

I presume these people want to warn OS4 users about yet another such incident, quite possibly unwarranted.

I'm sure if it were the other way around (MorphOS guys getting a nice £1500 system to run their OS on) it would be some individuals on the AmigaOS side of the fence trying to down play it and ridicule it instead.

Quite possibly.

[Piru]

In all fairness, this isn't really about hardware longevity as it is numbers, is it?

Of course. But I also consider Apple HW superior to any AmigaOne. Build quality, durability, parts & repair availability are superior. It's a win-win situation.

Well, except that you can't get the PowePC Macintosh under warranty. But it's so cheap that you can actually replace the HW easily. The spare parts will be available for years to come, which is not going to happen for a computer with a production run of thousands.

So to recap, yes, it's mostly about numbers. And it's a good thing.

[asymetrix]

I really dont understand this Anti-Amiga talk.

Cant people just support Amiga developers ?

Small companies have to grow before they can successfully build systems in large batches.

When the X1000 takes off we will increase the Amiga userbase by 1000-2000 !

Commodore made their own hardware, used their own parts and sold Amigas in 50,000 batches.

Commodore did not make Amiga from zero startup - they used the profit of millions of C64 sales and used its staff.

Commodore was founded in 1954.

C64 released in 1982 (28 years later)
Amiga 1000 released in 1985 (31 years later)

So A-eon have 31 years to create an Amiga equivelent to technological advances  made in 1985.

So 2041 is the year to look out for :-)

[Norway]

I'd bet somewhere between 200 and 350 total sales for the X1000 which would be a fatal disaster.

I'd bet somewhere between 200 and 350 total users of Aros...

[asymetrix]

I wont buy MorphOS on dead end hardware. The Mac people would just laugh at me taking their scraps.

This parasitic route is not the way for me.

[Karlos]

I wont buy MorphOS on dead end hardware. The Mac people would just laugh at me taking their scraps.

This parasitic route is not the way for me.

Just as with the the "I bet they'll sell a dozen units" type remarks we've heard, I think that's equally a bit uncalled for. I think you are really trying to say is that you wouldn't buy MorphOS, period. Without a hardware vendor, releasing the OS for PPC Mac was probably the smartest move available for a software team. Either that, or go x86, for which there already is a free alternative.

[Piru]

I wont buy MorphOS on dead end hardware.

Following this argument you won't buy OS4 on X1000 either, as it's even more dead end.

[Karlos]

Following this argument you won't buy OS4 on X1000 either, as it's even more dead end.

Can you even have degrees of dead-endedness? If you take it as meaning "lacking opportunities for development or advancement", then something is either dead-end or it isn't *shrug*

As long as a piece of hardware is in production, it has the potential to be developed further.

PPC Macs are not in active production or development. Viewed purely as a piece of hardware, it is, according to the above definition, dead-end. As are the old A1, Pegasos et al, not to mention classic Amiga models. The only opportunity for any form of advancement they all have are the ongoing development of software (including OS).

I have several dead-end machines and their dead-endedness has not proven to be a barrier to having any fun with them

I'd be quite happy to own more, finances permitting

[cv643d]

Dickinson seems like a great guy. You almost want to pay 1500 euro for the system just to let the dream live and help out another Amiga user.


But then reality takes you back...    

-In a perfect os4 world there would be no 150 euro MOS on 150 euro Apple hardware.
-In a perfect os4 + MOS world there would be no 0 euro AROS on 0 euro hardware.

Its going to be an interesting year from an Amiga perspective IMHO