Retro is better

[Cammy]

I've always wanted to try out this theoretical real-time antialiasing trick with Amigas. You have the game set in EHB mode, all your BOBs and background graphics would use the first 32 colours, and all the BOBs have a EHB mask behind them which slightly overlaps the BOB its under (the pixel artist would determine the best mask). This would give the illusion of an outline around the characters which is semi-transparent and would help blur jagged edges, and could also be used for shadows below the characters. Or shadow character bad guys!

[LoadWB]

The Neo Geo is an incredible gaming experience. I've had several throughout the years (arcade MVS machines as well). They sure maximized the processing power in that puppy. There's even a 68000 in it IIRC. Both Baseball Stars, League Bowling, Last Resort, Metal Slug, King of Monsters, Umm... I'll just stop there. There's waaay too many great games for it, although you can have all those generic fighters they kept pumping out in the mid 90's. Yuck.

Dual 12MHz 68000, IIRC.  And I envy your experience of owning NeoGeo MVS.  I absolutely loved "Last Resort" and would play the hell out of that game at the local diner.  Best part about the MVS was the headphone jack.  I could immerse myself in the game and not bother patrons.  It was like stepping out of another world when I finally finished.

As for 3D, I think the best and most exciting 3D games I ever played were "Looney Tunes Racing" on the Dreamcast, "CyberSled" (arcade and Playstation,) and "Crimson Skies" on the X-Box.  I really enjoy realistic, first-person games -- not so much shooters.  I played one of the Star Wars release in which you get to fly a TIE Fighter... that was pretty neat, too.

But I have a good bit of disdain for some of the 3D games out there now which seem to be just 3D and no real meat.  Someone else mentioned that the 3D does not add to a lot of games, and I have to agree.  I want substance in 3D.  Unfortunately, a lot of 3D games I have played are nothing more than textured 2D characters superimposed into a 3D space.  Really sucky.

Unfortunately (or perhaps not) I cannot partake of "modern" consoles because the screen modes trigger headaches in very short order.  Displays which output 120Hz and above delay the inevitable, and a friend has a unit with software interpolation which reduces the effects of motion which also seems to help, but eventually the piercing pain hits me, and in a bad way, too, accompanied by motion-sick-like queasiness.

[Karlos]

I've always wanted to try out this theoretical real-time antialiasing trick with Amigas. You have the game set in EHB mode, all your BOBs and background graphics would use the first 32 colours, and all the BOBs have a EHB mask behind them which slightly overlaps the BOB its under (the pixel artist would determine the best mask). This would give the illusion of an outline around the characters which is semi-transparent and would help blur jagged edges, and could also be used for shadows below the characters. Or shadow character bad guys!

I'm not sure that'd actually work. The second 32 colours are always going to be the same as the first 32, just half as bright.

For antialiasing, you need to be able to blend foreground and background pixel colours together in a ratio proportional to how much of the pixel the foreground occupies using the blend equation below

pixelColour = fgAlpha*fgColour + (1.0-fgAlpha)*bgColour

where fgAlpha is the alpha channel value of the foreground for that pixel (in the scale 0-1, where 0 is completely transparent).

The alpha channel is where the antialiasing comes in. If you imagine a perfect 45 degree diagonal edge that you were antialiasing, it might cut a pixel perfectly in half and as such, the pixel at that point would have an alpha channel of 0.5.

What EHB ought to be good for, however, is realtime shadows.

[Einstein]

Same 2D ftw.

Thats why I play http://www.dofus.com

What kind of game is it, mmrpg ?

Notice however that the gfx (most of the environment, save the chars maybe) looks 3d modeled and orthographically rendered.

[Cammy]

For what I'm thinking of EHB would work fine. The edges of the characters in my game are all black for example, but if they were EHB instead of black they'd help the edges of the characters blend in better. I have played around a lot with the concept in Personal Paint and it actually looks pretty nice, I wish I could use the effect in my game so the characters didn't have such jagged edges, especially when they're in front of lighter coloured backgrounds.

I'm fully aware it's not REAL antialiasing, doesn't perform the same action, and can't be applied to anything other than the concept I've already toyed with, but for softening the dark edges of some characters it looks better to have a pixel of darker background colour than black.

[matthey]

I'm fully aware it's not REAL antialiasing, doesn't perform the same action, and can't be applied to anything other than the concept I've already toyed with, but for softening the dark edges of some characters it looks better to have a pixel of darker background colour than black.

It's still a quick and dirty form of anti-aliasing. It's not going to be as high of quality but it's going to be a lot faster on the 68020 and 68030 where multiplication is slow. What counts is how it looks. I always wondered why EHB wasn't used more. If the colors are chosen correctly it does pretty much double the number of colors.

[matthey]

What kind of game is it, mmrpg ?

Hey Einstein, don't you know about Wikipedia? Sorry it sounded cool .
mmorpg = Massively multiplayer online role-playing game

so...

mmrpg = Massively multiplayer role-playing game?

I guess there aren't enough Amigans online for the former.

[Einstein]

Hey Einstein, don't you know about Wikipedia? Sorry it sounded cool .
mmorpg = Massively multiplayer online role-playing game

so...

mmrpg = Massively multiplayer role-playing game?

No problem. mmrpg, mmorpg, mmsrpg, smsrpg... I don't know, I have never touched any, ever. I consider them a Massive Waste of Time.

I guess there aren't enough Amigans online for the former.

I'm neither Amigan nor mmorpg fan
But Ich bin Einstein

[fishy_fiz]

I usually prefer retro style games more, but that's more because the majority of big name games are pretty similar, and have been for a few years now. There's so much money required to make big name titles these days very few people seem willing to take a gamble and develop something different than the usual big sellers (parallels hollywood here). Really though I just like good games, if a game works/is good Im happy, I dont care if its 2d or 3d, retro or new. In regards to the idea that audiovisuals take preference to gameplay these days though I'd have to disagree,... typically a modern game has quite a large development team, the people doing the graphics are different people than those doing the programming, who are often different people to those that are doing the game design. I have to disagree about racing games too,... I love the old style sega sprite based racers in the arcades (turbo outrun in the arcades is one of my fav. games)... just a shame that the amiga's efforts are mostly pretty crappy (lotus is ok, if not great), even the c64 has better sprite based racers.
Just my 2 cents

p.s. There's lots of good new homebrew/indie retro style games out there. I even found a website dedicated to remakes of old classic amiga games  

[runequester]

well, part of it too is that it costs millions of dollars to create a game these days.
So unless you have a "big name" developer who can call the shots, companies are going to churn out "safe bets". A generic space marine FPS will sell for sure on the xbox so thats a safe bet. A game like Lemmings (to use an old example).. its a crap shoot

[Karlos]

For what I'm thinking of EHB would work fine. The edges of the characters in my game are all black for example, but if they were EHB instead of black they'd help the edges of the characters blend in better. I have played around a lot with the concept in Personal Paint and it actually looks pretty nice, I wish I could use the effect in my game so the characters didn't have such jagged edges, especially when they're in front of lighter coloured backgrounds.

I'm fully aware it's not REAL antialiasing, doesn't perform the same action, and can't be applied to anything other than the concept I've already toyed with, but for softening the dark edges of some characters it looks better to have a pixel of darker background colour than black.

Ah, you mean you'd be using the 50% brightness shades to smooth the transition from your sprite to a black edge? Yep, I can see how that works.

[Cammy]

Yeah, like that!

[FrenchShark]

I'm a bit curious, actually. I've experimented with a 2D tiling stuff in the past that used 3D hardware to render tiles, in 32-bit depth with simple (read gouraud) lighting effects and antialiased "sprites" (32-bit images moving over the top). I can easily imagine some retro style games doing that on modern hardware with pixel-shaded sprites and tiles for highly realistic lighting effects.

Where does that sit in the spectrum of 2D versus 3D ?

Have you ever try Hurrican ?
http://turrican.gamevoice.de/hurrican_site/
To me, this is how 2D games should use modern graphics capabilities.

Regards,

Frederic

[Karlos]

Have you ever try Hurrican ?
http://turrican.gamevoice.de/hurrican_site/
To me, this is how 2D games should use modern graphics capabilities.

Regards,

Frederic

Now that's what I'm talking about!

[bbond007]

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Yes, Hurrican looks very good!

also check out Trine, might be the best 2D platform 3D game ever...

http://trine-thegame.com/site/

also

http://www.braid-game.com/

I have never played Little Big Planet,  but that may be worth looking into as well.

[djrikki]

What kind of game is it, mmrpg ?

Notice however that the gfx (most of the environment, save the chars maybe) looks 3d modeled and orthographically rendered.

Yeah its a mmorpg.  Yeah it runs in Flash so can be played on a range of platforms including my trusty iMac.  Well having said that up until recently it ran through Adobe's Standalone Flashplayer in AS2, but in the last few weeks they released an entirely coded update in AS3 which requires Adobe Air to run so no chance I'll be able to play it if I buy a X1000 which I may do if the price is right. :-/

Anyway I digress... so yes it orthographically rendered.  You can zoom into the characters at will and they won't pixelate. But some static features (predominately the scenery) are 2D bitmaps so they will pixelate.

So a great mix of 2D and 3D which is one reason why I love it - the other big reason is that is turn-based which is extremely rare for a modern-day mmorpg.

It reminds me in many ways of the early rpgs by SSI (westwood studios?) AD&D-style games like Champions of Krynn and Death Knights of Krynn.

There are a series of classes, warriors, healers, those that bend time, those are adept in shields, amongst other things and the class I choose - treasure hunter.

The game engine indeed harks back to the days of Champions of Krynn, you have a set period of time to take your turn, you have AP (action points) and MP (movement points) that you can use to cast and move.

You fight monsters and the bit I like - PvP.  You can fight against and with other players.

As you can tell I love this game!

Edit: Einstein, a lot of MMORPGs are a waste of time - especially the WoW varieties as I don't like FPSs as they require little or no strategy just who can click the quickest.

Dofus (pronounced do-fuu, not doo-fuss lol) is produced by a french developer called Ankama who have really pushed Flash to its limits over the years.  If you play the game its incredible to believe its coded in Flash/AS3.