mac and pc sucks!!!!

[LoadWB]

Really?  :confused:

Yes.

[Britelite]

Sure as hell though in the past there was some excellent coding, like the SID player and C64 Demo by Per Hakan Sundell for OCS Amigas, yes he of C64S emulator for DOS, who managed to get some amazingly accurate C64 SID tunes converted very closely with just Paula and a 7mhz 68000

To be honest, even if the sidplayer is pretty cool, and I've used it a fair bit, it's not "amazingly accurate", the tunes sound nothing like they should

show me all you want from later years but this in itself shows a time when extremely efficient coding was in evidence, and there is not a single 8mhz 8086 + 16bit Soundblaster equivalent of the C64 Music Demo as produced for Amiga.

Why a 16bit soundblaster? And have you actually tried searching for anything made for the 8086?

at the time (80s to early 90s) Amiga was king of the demo scene end of story.

And still the best effects were made on the C64

If I owned a Falcon I would download Silk Cut for that too, simple.

Indeed, it runs way better on the Falcon, and is actually a pleasure to watch on it

[Linde]

show me all you want from later years but this in itself shows a time when extremely efficient coding was in evidence, and there is not a single 8mhz 8086 + 16bit Soundblaster equivalent of the C64 Music Demo as produced for Amiga.

If we're talking about sound playback, it's pretty much a no-brainer no-cpu task on the Amiga compared to PC's with sound blaster cards, thanks to the Paula. I don't think that it's a fair comparison when it comes to "efficient coding."

Now, filling the VGA frame buffer without blitters, hardware sprite engines, coppers etc. and playing back sound having to fill a sound buffer with new samples every few milliseconds -- as it was typically done in the early PC demoscene -- that requires efficient coding!

Of course, there are some effects that are easier to do on a PC just because of these differences (and PC's generally have a lot faster processors), so I wouldn't be to quick about making a "coding efficiency" comparison.

As for today, I think "coding efficiency" is a small trade-off considering the advantages abstract API-based high level programming has. Portability, compatibility, readability, maintainability, integrability, standards compliance etc. (not to mention things like, say, memory protection...) are all instrumental qualities for the development of bug free and complex software.

We wouldn't have things like Firefox today if it was written in hand-optimized and unstructured assembler by a single developer whose ultimate goal instantaneous start-up time and full frame rate on an 80's computer.

[gertsy]

Here is some hard truth for everyone...!

90% of all stats regarding OS uptimes in computer forums are made up on the spot.

@Linde : Imagine what we could have if people were both creative and economic in their coding: Faster smaller programs. (Lazy is as what lazy does)

Gertsy

[Phx_]

I have to quote this old posting again, which I think is noteworthy:

but look at it from this point of view... you should be able to come to an Amiga Board and post very pro and optimistic posts as you like... people can jump onboard and feel good about there platform and there little world... without having to worry about some user spurting out some kind of realistic comparison... Everyone that uses an Amiga knows what it's capable of...

This is what SHOULD be moderated on a PRO Amiga Forum... instead, we have heaps of members who have outgrown the Amiga and are hell bent on pissing on the Amiga ideal time and time again...

I can only second this! There are enough forums on the net to talk about different things, but I wished there would be a real Amiga forum where you can live your hobby without having to read troll postings (even if they are realistic and true). Though, this can only be achieved with strict moderation and banning.

The only forum I know which comes near to it is the german http://www.a1k.org.

[Linde]

I can only second this! There are enough forums on the net to talk about different things, but I wished there would be a real Amiga forum where you can live your hobby without having to read troll postings (even if they are realistic and true).

There should also be some sort of fantasy dreamland where everything is made out of puppies and candy, because I can't cope with reality, even when it's the topic of discussion. Am I "pissing" on the Amiga by being realistic?

EDIT: To clarify, I LOVE the Amiga. I just don't think that its software/hardware model is realistic in modern applications.

[persia]

@Linde

I think it's hard for people to accept that AmigaOS is really out of step with the current century and that there aren't millions of people waiting for it.  They need to chill out and just enjoy their hobby instead of being so fundamentalist.  

The Amiga is a great toy, I enjoy playing with it, but it isn't ever going to replace my MacPro as a production machine.  Nor would I want it too.  When I'm on my Amiga it's impossible to do serious work, that's a plus in my book!

[Arkhan]

@Linde

I think it's hard for people to accept that AmigaOS is really out of step with the current century and that there aren't millions of people waiting for it.  They need to chill out and just enjoy their hobby instead of being so fundamentalist.  

The Amiga is a great toy, I enjoy playing with it, but it isn't ever going to replace my MacPro as a production machine.  Nor would I want it too.  When I'm on my Amiga it's impossible to do serious work, that's a plus in my book!

You wanna talk out of step with the current century?

Macs blow a few at gaming.

Amigas do not.

What now.

[Linde]

You wanna talk out of step with the current century?

Macs blow a few ********** at gaming.

Amigas do not.

What now.

Install a few video game emulators. Now the mac is superior to the Amiga again.

[Einstein]

Install a few video game emulators. Now the mac is superior to the Amiga again.

Don't forget non-emulated games: http://www.apple.com/games/

PS:
I dislike Apple.

[persia]

Portal!!!!!

Now we can all sing along with Eric Swartz's Portal video!!!!

[Amiga_Nut]

@Amiga_Nut


Regardless if you believe this, Windows 7 is really really good.

That you somehow think that Microsoft does pathetic coding tells us more about you than Microsoft.

Yeah it tells people I'm not a Microsoft fanboy lapping up their pathetic offerings

I think you are confusing modern paradigms with Winblows specific code. Microsoft didn't invent all the cool add-ons to basic HTML, in fact they tried to monopolise it and failed. They didn't invent FLAC or MP3, nope they tried to monopolise that area with DRMd WMA format. WAV is no different to IFF samples, they certainly didn't invent the 16bit DACs on sound cards used to play 16bit sounds instead of 8bit. Divx and Mpeg 1/2/4 were not invented by Microsoft, nor were the codecs, they just utilise it all in the bloatware media player and invented DRMd crap WMV formats of their own. You need 2x-3x the CPU speed to play a DVD in Vista than XP, and that's if you are allowed to use your XP driver if there isn't a new Vista one, otherwise you need 2ghz to play a DVD via the standard Win7/Vista driver....two bloody gigahertz!

Here's a classic, did Workbench ever fry your blitter/copper just sitting there displaying a desktop with some icons you can click on? Nope don't think that happened. Funny then that those losers at Microsoft decided that the Vista GUI desktop should permanently engage your 3D GPU on the desktop screen displaying some icons and windows and a task bar...great idea....until it fries your laptop GPU on idle just displaying the desktop.Classic! Totally clueless company, they really have no brains there. And all the 'new' stuff to move windows around now makes Windows unusable on a netbook and extremely annoying. They make billions and they probably didn't even test it on the average netbook despite promising it would be designed for netbook users after the trainwreck that was Vista running on Intel Atom 1.6ghz ha!

So what is Windows good for today, what is actually left?

Maybe as a platform for executing 1080+ HD gaming...erm PS3/360 clearly show that the core kernal need only be a handful of megabytes even to get 5.1 sound and 1080p DX10 graphics. The 360s OS is something like 64kb, so while running a game why do I need 2x the CPU and a billion times the memory? Even worse comparing Xbox1 and Win XP on 2ghz CPU for running Colin McRae 3 on PC...which is still inferior even with identical GPU. I'm pretty sure there is no $300 PC that will play a game as audio visually stunning as the nine level rendered realtime game on PS3 called Killzone II. Ditto for a $150 PC that plays Gears of War on Vista as good as X360

General use like Facebook/MSN (also now bloatware)/internet surfing? Nope because all these are fully possible on a 256mb average speed P3 with XP...hmmm.

As an OS Win 7/Vista IS pathetic! What is it that Windows is doing that is so great?

The fact you can't play Divx files on an A1200/4000 stock machine again is nothing to do with M$ coding really, they didn't invent the CPU, they didn't write the amazing codecs, they didn't invent the fast IDE hard drives. Nope they just did the rubbish bloatware bit that lets you double click on the icons and run a media player (their's being the worst as usual...all that glitz and the twats who coded WMP10/11 forgot to add an aspect ratio control for videos...losers). Whoopee dooo how amazing! The fact you can't do XYZ on Amiga OS1/2/3/4 or AROS and can on Windows is 99.99999% nothing to do with Microsoft. And in fact I run the lowest form of Windows needed so I don't waste my time with useless crap. XP does everything you need, sod making M$ richer by downgrading to 7/Vista. In fact this machine with some tweaks to the OS and 3rd party codecs/media players happily plays 1080p video without dropping a frame, on Win 7/Vista with up to date Nvidia drivers it's like a fast slideshow...yeah that's progress isn't it The media player alone is 3x more efficient at frame rates than anything Microsoft ship today.

So what's it good at? Starting to sound like Neo asking "what is the Matrix" lol

Sure as hell isn't multitasking because a few months into 7 and Flash was already hogging things and causing noticeable delays just launching things...Kickstart kernal is what 40kb anway? So what is the other 1.9999995Gb being loaded up with? Sure as hell isn't gaming because the 360 OS is 64kb and is just as glitzy, as is the PS3 which even plays Blu-Rays without crippling the output like Vista to appease the copyright gods*, maybe .0001% of the population worldwide runs Maya or other 3D rendering software so the multithreading helps...but OS/2 had multithreading decades before. You can play DVDs/700mb Divx rips with a 300mhz P2 CPU even up to XP with just 128mb of RAM. Audio is a no brainer, a 486 will play music. Surfing the internet? Hell no, why would I need such ludicrous amounts of CPU to run Internet Explorer or Firefox. Flash is also bloatware rubbish, if anything Microsoft's crappy OS coding and profit making encourages that kind of rubbish from Adobe to be acceptable! It isn't Streaming Divx was superior to Flash half a decade ago...let alone now.

I have explained that just to click on icons and attempt multitasking on a GUI environment 2ghz and 2gb IS pathetic. Perhaps you could explain technically WHY 'Windows', not things done by other talented coders, is great.
Plenty of morons choose to pay for Vista/Win7 annually with that moronic grin on their face as they clutch their shiny boxes in the queues at PC World, I hope you have an ace up your sleeve to get yourself out of this group of people now

Bloat bloat motherbloating bloat. That's all that ever came out of Bill Gate's a-hole sorry. Windows 7 was meant to be running a tiny tightly coded kernal loading only what it needs to do the job after all the bad press Vista got, I think it was called Vienna? Anyway they changed their minds and 7 is just Vista SP3 + inferior GUI skin  

Enjoy

re: C64 Demo comments by others

The programmer is the same for C64S emulator in DOS, which is the only PC example of SID accuracy I can find, as the Amiga SID player so I don't know if he did a stand alone SID player or not. Given just how much extra CPU time any C64 emulator takes with sound enabled even in the DOS days I find it impressive that the demo/player even exists. I am not going to sit here and say Doom should be possible on an A500 but this is a bit different.

Oh and I said SB16 because I thought the older Soundblaster cards were OPL/FM based things like the Adlib cards etc. Ancient PC stuff by name is not me forte sorry

re:server OS comments
I have no reference point for an ingenious, light years ahead of the competition, OS and hardware package....only for desktop machines. All I know is we had a reliable and elegant GUI multitasking desktop OS in 1985 with multimedia capability as the time allowed (movies on an 880kb floppy? behave!)...so how did things become so bloated now from our 256kb 7mhz roots!

In essence Windows sucks, PC's have amazing innards, and well there isn't much of an alternative is there lol

[Piru]

Enjoy

I did. Not for the reasons you'd like but I did.

[TheBilgeRat]

I know its easy to bash the big bad corporations for being, well, big and bad... but without a steady profit stream there is no innovation and next greatest thing.  Right now its all windows and intel, sure, with a smattering of linux here and there (and mac too, yes yes).  Progression is not always clean and happy.  Yes windows is bloatware, but then again so is Ubuntu and MacOS.  At some point the keyboard and mouse will be relegated to the trash heap and we can name our computer AI's and carry them around in little crystal storage units.  The explosion of the computer market out of the hands of geeks and people willing to tinker into the hands of soccer moms stalking their children on facebook is sadly progression of a sort.

[LoadWB]

Yeah it tells people I'm not a Microsoft fanboy lapping up their pathetic offerings

And your point is?

[LoadWB]

Assertion 1: Correct, MS did not create the majority of the codecs in use.  But you can thank a large part of the decrease in performance in DVD viewing (in particular) to industry morons who require encryption at every stage of viewing, from the DVD to drive to memory to video to monitor, to prevent any user from capturing their product in the clear at any point.  That puts a rather large amount of stress on a system.

Assertion 2: Microsoft's use of a GPU for its visual elements is actually a very good idea.  In fact, most Amigans should like this "new found" usage, and maybe even start shouting "we did it first, with our blitters and what-not, whipper-snappers!"  But if a GPU cannot handle the load put on it to render fancy display objects, then do not blame the software writer, blame the company which made the cheap video card, and the rube who bought a $40 3D card.  Or a $200 video card made with $40 card parts and a hellacious cooling system.

Assertion 3: Windows 7 runs very well on an Atom-based Netbook.  Get your head off Vista.

Assertion 4: Windows is actually very useful, depending upon your uses.

Assertion 5: From Windows XP x64,

Code: [Select]

03/04/2010  10:58 PM         4,588,544 ntoskrnl.exe

Again, your point?  Think about the Amiga in relation: the original operating system for Amiga only had to deal with a very small set of known hardware.  With the availability of additional hardware such as sound cards and RTG video, things had to be added on.  IIRC, AHI is a 6MB package by itself.  So, in parallel, as complexity increases, so does the required support software.

Assertion 6: For that matter, why do we need such a bloated system like the Amiga, when a Commodore 64 can do all that?

Assertion 7: Go read some of Mark Russinovich's (of the late System Internals fame, now a part of Microsoft) articles on the changes in the Vista core.  I have not read anything from him on 7, admittedly, but I can say Vista had some really damn neat stuff in it, though the performance left QUITE a lot to be desired.

Assertion 8: See my response to one, re: digital rights management.

Assertion 9: Seriously?

Assertion 10: Flash?  You are going to bash an operating system because of Flash?!  You got some of it down in here, but try rendering today on decades old hardware and call me every day when one more frame is rendered.  And if you keep comparing specialized hardware (consoles) to general use hardware (PCs.)  Please stop -- you are comparing a sports car to a station wagon.  And sure, 700MB DivX is "good enough," but you will not get the quality for the performance exchange: 300MHz PII plays DivX just fine, yes, I know this, but play a Blu-Ray or your favorite movie "The Matrix" on that same machine.

Assertion 11: *sigh*  I grow tired of your "older is better" crap.  Put your money where your mouth is, please.  Take some of these old, great machines and do what you think you can do with them which makes them oh-so-much-better than modern machines.  YouTube it.  Just stop with the inane drivel.  And, yes, Adobe writes crap software which is bloated and slow -- but again, please tell me what this has to do with Microsoft?  

Assertion 12:  If you truly believe 7 is a service pack to Vista, then you have lost all credibility, along with the 9-11 Truthers and Moon Hoaxers.  Read a little, research a little, and quit trying to run software on a $150 machine which is best suited for UAE than a modern operating system, anyway, and you will have to replace in a year when it dies.  Me, I will stick with my 2.93GHz Quad-Core, 12GB of RAM with 64-bit Windows with my plethora of well-working software and OS emulations allowing me to run Solaris 10, Windows XP, and whatever the hell else I want.  Stick with outdated, antiquated hardware -- no one will care, and I am sure you will be much happier.  

Assertion 13: Not all PCs are amazing inside, though they mostly have the potential.  I would be happy to invest in your movie-on-a-floppy idea -- when you have compressed a movie which will be watchable and practical onto a floppy disk, we will be rich.  In the mean time, I think I will stick with these fangled DVD and Blu-Ray thingies, they seem to hold longer video, deeper colors, better quality, and better sound.

Assertion 14: No alternatives?  Shirley, you must be joking.

:afro: