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Offline scuzzb494

Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #59 from previous page: March 07, 2010, 09:44:05 AM »
Quote from: Hell Labs;546498
the commodore made 1200 cdrom drive? The one that looks like a cd32 with bits sawn off?


There use to be a link on Ian's Big Book of Hardware [ not the new site ] to a site where a guy had pictures of one. I could never work out whether it was just the case from the description. It was black. There was much hype in Amiga Format at the time, and it kinda made me hang on in there. There was a problem with them cus they used the trapdoor slot if I recall. All the same I so wanted one.

PS: Do you know where the line ' I have been searching for a certain artifact ' comes from ?

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2010, 09:54:48 AM »
Quote from: desiv;546509
True, I can't remember how much it cost, but I remember my first 1x CDROM.
I remember I played a lot of Gobliiins with that.  :-)
Also, later, I played a lot of 7th Guest.  Loved the puzzles, although my 1X never synced audio quite right, but it was close enough. :-)

I still maintain, it wasn't CDRoms or Doom that killed the Amiga, it was Commodore.

Runequester's numbers show that the number of games was still increasing until CBM called it quits..

Now, you can argue what might have happened had a strong Commodore been around to battle the Doom variants.  
Would the world have been happy with better 2D games?
Would some type of cheaper accessory/AAA chipset allowed the Amiga line to keep up?
Would people have just ponied up more money to upgrade Amigas to play 3D type games (as Mac users with Marathon and the like)?

Who knows...

desiv


I think what was discussed was the reason for seriously dumping the Amiga as a games machine in the early nineties. I could never get my head round the very poor image quality of Amiga Doom clones, when compared to a game strictly produced for the Amiga of the time. The Vulcan series of games were the last games to exploit the Amiga. We waited an age for Speris Legacy and Sensible Golf and Robinsons Requiem just to discover they were utterly crap. FIFA was the killer cus it was just unplayable... And then Win95 hit, with CDRoms in all new machines and Duke Nukem and Civilisation looked very tempting. Add then the PS1 and the Amiga was being pounded. All this while some tried to clone Doom onto an Amiga base machine [ which is what your average Amiga gamer had ]. Seriously, compared to say Duke on the PC they were terrible.

Without the development there really wasn`t going to be any interest from the serious gamer.

Yes Commodore killed the Amiga. Saying that, there was still a massive amount of interest in the platform and the community and remaining die hards created some mini wonders during the nineties. Hell, were still here. That is why I say had the Amiga gotten to the CD and internet first, the computing world  'may' have been a much more pleasant place.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2010, 12:40:50 PM »
Quote from: scuzzb494;546526
PS: Do you know where the line ' I have been searching for a certain artifact ' comes from ?
nope.


How much of a difference do you think it would have made, if commdodore didn't make the 500 and 1200 in keyboard cases? I'm not so sure the toy-computer look was great for the amigas image.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 12:43:24 PM by Hell Labs »
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2010, 01:17:56 PM »
Quote from: Hell Labs;546535
nope.


How much of a difference do you think it would have made, if commdodore didn't make the 500 and 1200 in keyboard cases? I'm not so sure the toy-computer look was great for the amigas image.


Lara.....

Personally I would swap a tin can for an A1200 working as a tin can any day. I just loved having everything on the desktop... Gamers play games and they care little about the machine or console as they tend to focus on the screen. Never been a TV gamer, and most I talk to are dedicated players in bedrooms. They play at their PC mostly so having the computer in the keyboard isn`t a problem. We will never know how the Amiga would have developed, but personally the Amiga was everything to me as a computer, both as a dedicated PC and games machine. Now I have to swivel on this chair and look at another screen to play on the PS3... I just wish I didn`t. I also hate the tin box.. Its archaic.. Scuse spelling.

The A1200 was a dream computer, still is. Chuck in half the technology they have in mobile phones, laptops, etc and the A1200 would fly in the current case design. With the slender DVD drives and flash hard drives it just gets easier. For me the computer should be the keyboard. Then I could get rid of this annoying dinosaur of a tin box. Nothing changes sadly. We need folk like those that developed the Amiga to show the world what a real computer could look, feel and operate like.

We have given in far too easy to the grown ups... Boring. Not the world of computing that I grew up in sadly. The last ten to fifteen years have changed emphasis from a serious computer interest to internet cruise junkie activities...

Frankie said ' We are living in a world where sex and horror are the new gods '
Frankie now says ' We are living in a world where YouTube and Twitter are the new gods '

You can have it. That's why I collect retro.

scuzz

Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2010, 04:15:29 PM »
Quote from: quarkx;546520
I 100% agree. If you read the book "on the Edge", you will see that after Jack left, there was really no leadership at all at Commodore. All the top brass at Commodore were so busy milking every last cent out of it, the Amiga was kind of doomed from the start. If they were at all watching the market, and the engineer's had put out what they wanted to, the Amiga may have had a chance. Anyone at that time could see that CD-Roms were the future, and if Hombre had ever got out, there would be no debate over graphics (remember HP wanted to use Hombre in their High end workstations also). So, one can say that a collaboration with HP could have resulted in a totally different situation, mix it the fact that Epson wanted to market the Amiga in Japan, but Ali, messed it up TWICE (I believe it was EPSON) after it was suposibly a done deal, shows just how much Commodore's "Higher Ups" went out of their way to kill it.


yeah, Commodore did more to kill the amiga than Doom could ever have done

Even with the platform taking a step back as a gaming platform (and with the Playstation showing up, the seeds were laid for consoles to slowly but surely take over gaming from computers completely), there was still room for a cheap productivity computer, but that requires product to actually be sold by the company, which past 94 is largely gone.

I remember us paying 3 times as much for our first PC as my 1200, and it was a piece of shit.
 

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2010, 05:18:06 PM »
Quote from: scuzzb494;546539
Lara.....

Personally I would swap a tin can for an A1200 working as a tin can any day. I just loved having everything on the desktop... Gamers play games and they care little about the machine or console as they tend to focus on the screen. Never been a TV gamer, and most I talk to are dedicated players in bedrooms. They play at their PC mostly so having the computer in the keyboard isn`t a problem. We will never know how the Amiga would have developed, but personally the Amiga was everything to me as a computer, both as a dedicated PC and games machine. Now I have to swivel on this chair and look at another screen to play on the PS3... I just wish I didn`t. I also hate the tin box.. Its archaic.. Scuse spelling.

The A1200 was a dream computer, still is. Chuck in half the technology they have in mobile phones, laptops, etc and the A1200 would fly in the current case design. With the slender DVD drives and flash hard drives it just gets easier. For me the computer should be the keyboard. Then I could get rid of this annoying dinosaur of a tin box. Nothing changes sadly. We need folk like those that developed the Amiga to show the world what a real computer could look, feel and operate like.

We have given in far too easy to the grown ups... Boring. Not the world of computing that I grew up in sadly. The last ten to fifteen years have changed emphasis from a serious computer interest to internet cruise junkie activities...

Frankie said ' We are living in a world where sex and horror are the new gods '
Frankie now says ' We are living in a world where YouTube and Twitter are the new gods '

You can have it. That's why I collect retro.

scuzz

Yeah, but only toy computers have colour graphics and sounds. Only toy computers have a space saving design. "real" computers cost a load more, and since its for "serious work" you get 80 lines of text, the colour green, and a beep. "real computers" need to store all their parts in a low grade steel box, with a shitty peice of badly styled plastic glued to the front.

Nobody got fired for buying IBM. It's all about perception.
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline persia

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2010, 06:20:30 PM »
And in the end, MS got colour and sound and a multitasking windowing environment.  Innovators never dominate and their survival odds aren't that good either.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Offline Dandy

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Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2010, 08:57:50 AM »
Quote from: ToddH;546363


...
The incredible graphics that a Voodoo-based PC delivered was just too good to resist.



I agree - the Voodoo4 really delivers excellent graphics - even in my A4k PPC with Mediator PCI busboard...
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline Dandy

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Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2010, 09:14:27 AM »
Quote from: B00tDisk;546389


I killed my first set of WB disks 'just turning it off'.

No idea what was going on, but I shut 'er down just as I simultaneously noted the drive activity light was on.  Booted back up and...NDOS:

It was months before I had a functional set of disks again :(



Didn't you know what backups are good for back then?
I never used the original disks - aside from making backups from them for every days usage.
 :-P
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline Dandy

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Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2010, 09:28:33 AM »
Quote from: Tempest;546423

@bloodline

...
By the time Doom was released none of my friends where using an Amiga anymore.
...



What's "Doom"?
 ;-)
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline Dandy

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Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2010, 09:43:44 AM »
Quote from: Tomas;546461


...
The a1200 and a4000 should have had a cdrom drive by default in my opinion. PC's that came out at that time all had cdrom.



Hmmmmm - IIRC Amiga had the first computer that came with a CD-ROM: the CDTV.

Didn't they have a patent on using a CD drive for computing?
If so, I don't understand that they didn't earn enough money from the licenses from all the other manufacturers that subsequently started to fit CD-ROMs into their computers...
All the best,

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Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2010, 09:50:11 AM »
Quote from: runequester;546506


Im hard pressed to think of a game on more than 5 floppies that were not hard drive installable. Examples ?



Mario Brothers?
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline quarkx

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2010, 04:24:15 PM »
Quote from: runequester;546552
yeah, Commodore did more to kill the amiga than Doom could ever have done

Even with the platform taking a step back as a gaming platform (and with the Playstation showing up, the seeds were laid for consoles to slowly but surely take over gaming from computers completely), there was still room for a cheap productivity computer, but that requires product to actually be sold by the company, which past 94 is largely gone.

I remember us paying 3 times as much for our first PC as my 1200, and it was a piece of shit.


You also have to take in the fact, that Commodore itself was itself, the ultimate Company, and ultimately it's own downfall. Let me explain.
Today, not one company has everything. A computer Company now, probably has a few design teams of engineers and then sends off the designs to a 3rd party to get the chips fabed, then sends those off to another company to get the motherboards fabricated and so on, Ultimately ending up at an Assembly plant somewhere in China, that slaps "Brand X" and "Brand Y" on it and so on. A few years back (2003, 2004), there was only 3 Laptop factories in the world, and all laptops came out of those plants. It was funny because you could get an HP laptop for x amount of dollars, and find the exact same laptop branded ECS for $100 Cheaper. HP then got wise and started custom designing the case, so ECS could not just re-brand them and sell them for cheaper.

Thanks to Jack's vision (and cheapness) Commodore had EVERYthing. It was the oly company (other than TI) to have it's own chip manufacturing facility, making the turnaround time for hardware developers, next to nothing. Commodore had the ONLY LCD manufacturing facility and Company in North America. If they would have actually made the Commodore LCD laptop- which was designed and had thousands of pre-orders, Commodore would have created and dominated the mobile market back before there even was a mobile market.Sure Tandy had the T-100 laptop out, but Commodore's Laptop was under $500 and had a built in modem and everything.
Commodore had some of the best engineer's in the world beging to work for them. The team of Bil Herd and Dave Haynie dominated every project Commodore had before the Amiga. Bil left and wanted to come back, but management said "No". If Bil had come back when he wanted to the C65 would have been done at least 1 or 2 years earlier and who knows what he would have done for the Amiga.
Commodore also had WORLDWIDE distribution and brand recognition. Not one company can really claim that today. Sure HP and Dell are maybe close to it, but HP and Dell do not have manufacturing plants across Europe.
It is truly, very hard to grasp the whole picture of Commodore, Remember that also, at the time of Commodore's peek, Commodore Canada was STILL making Office furniture, desks and file cabinets in 1986. It is hard too say, but they probably were still cranking out a few calculators at that time also. In Germany, Commodore was THE Company and the products to own. The closest thing today to the fever of CBM in Germany, is the way people HAVE to have an ipod. It was that kind of vibe there. There is a story in the book on the PET JET was over Germany carrying a few engineers, and it ran out of fuel and had to make an emergency landing in a small airport. The engineers had been welcomed by a marching band and the mayor and the whole town came out to welcome them, because they had thought Jack was on the plane. That is the kind of celeberty status that Commodore had. Once Jack left, Gould, sold off Commodore a bit at a time, ever pumping up the stock price, so they could milk every last cent out of Commodore. Instead of investing in the future of the company, Every CEO Gould brought in had only one agenda. To squeeze every last cent out of Commodore, until the well was dry. The Amiga was just one of the tools and consequently the corpse that was lelt behind in its wake. By 1994, the Amiga was the only thing left at Commodore. The 8bit age was a distant memory of days gone by.
If Jack would have stayed, the Amiga would never have been a Commodore product. Jack's own vision probably would have put Commodore under by 1994 also, because he would had an "off the shelf" version of a 68000 machine (exactly the same as he did at Atari). He MAY have put the resources into the Commodore PC line, but that is hard to say.
 Jack did not know the big secret in Business, hire and surround people smarter than you, and grow with their Ideas. That is why he left in the first place, it was either his way or the highway.
I have Amiga stuff for sale at http://amigalounge.com. You can follow my builds there also.
 

Offline zombie10k

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2010, 09:11:06 PM »
Quote from: scuzzb494;546539

Frankie said ' We are living in a world where sex and horror are the new gods '
Frankie now says ' We are living in a world where YouTube and Twitter are the new gods '

You can have it. That's why I collect retro.

scuzz


i'm pretty sure I know how old you are based on the Frankie goes to Hollywood quotes.. :)

Frankie says relax!

I was a die hard from 87-95. Sometime around 94 or so, I recall using my Amiga with a 14.4k modem connected to a local unix dialup ISP, with the CSLIP->TCP/IP app and looking at one of the first websites in the US (I believe the browser was Mosaic), the Franklin Institute website in Philadelphia, PA.

it was difficult enough finding support in the US during that time period (I remember drooling over my Amiga Format mags and the the great hardware in the UK). Once 1995 hit, I jumped ship for a home built Pentium 100 (or 120 was it?) with 16 megs of ram, a soundblaster 16, 2x cdrom and found a PC version of lightware 4.0 (my favorite amiga app).

It was hard to look back, the Amiga seemed a bit antiquated even at that time. I think it was the 1024x768 High color desktop on what was then a big screen (17" CRT).

I do recall wolfenstein and Doom being the talk of the town and once Duke Hit with network support over IPX (plenty of Novell network in the mid 90's saw the IPX traffic peaking). as mentioned, then the PS1 came on strong and the Amiga wasn't quite as compelling with diminishing resources.

For some reason, I just can't forget this great computer (The Amiga 1000 is my alltime favorite) and have been collecting them for years now.


some favorites:

KGB Demo
9 fingers
Lightwave
DCTV (saw the first hires / hicolor photos at the time)
GVP A530 turbo (one of the coolest products for the A500)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 10:29:56 PM by zombie10k »
2 A1000\\\'s, A500 + GVP A530, A1200HD + 68030 @ 50, A2000HD + GVP 030 @25, A600 HD. Looking for more!
 

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2010, 10:36:59 PM »
War Hide yourself

Being a frankie fan doesn't really show how old someone is. I wasn't even alive when they released that album.
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline Tension

Re: Common amiga knowledge that's wrong
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2010, 10:54:46 PM »
Quote from: Dandy;546662
Hmmmmm - IIRC Amiga had the first computer that came with a CD-ROM: the CDTV.

Didn't they have a patent on using a CD drive for computing?


!!!!!