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Author Topic: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?  (Read 9213 times)

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Offline KThunder

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #29 from previous page: March 02, 2010, 03:48:09 PM »
yeah they were loving up on the cash cow c64 and letting the techs do something or other with the amiga. no focus no plan for the future.
Oh yeah?!?
Well your stupid bit is set,
and its read only!
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Offline Kronos

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2010, 04:39:01 PM »
I would have designed AGA just as it was........





....... and release the A3000+ in summer 91 ........
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2010, 07:25:46 PM »
Quote from: kthunder;545889
yeah they were loving up on the cash cow c64 and letting the techs do something or other with the amiga. No focus no plan for the future.

to the time machine!
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2010, 07:29:17 PM »
Going back a little earlier...

The A500+ I think was a good machine for the price. I would have left it as it is.

The A600 had cuteness going for it. It should have had a 14MHz 68000 however, just for a little more pep, especially for 3D games.

The A1200, much as I loved it, was made to a price point and it showed.

Firstly, I would have had a 1.76MB floppy disc drive. The 880KB drives were horribly limited by this time.

The PCMCIA slot should have been an A500 style sidecar slot with the full 32-bit bus available. Drop the internal trapdoor expansion apart from making a SIMM slot (or two - 1 chip, one fast) available for memory expansion.

AGA was a bodge. The blitter should have been a full 32-bit blitter for a start. I would have had more audio channels in Paula, and the capability to run the HD floppy at full speed.

A native, fast, 8-bit chunky mode was needed. Also sprites should have been arbitrarily sized (even in steps of 16 pixels) and (effectively) unlimited in number, 4, 16 or 256 colours without having to "layer" the sprites for more colours. A scanline buffer that someone mentioned would have been good. Ability to do 800x600 (and 1024x768) resolution non-interlaced, albeit in fewer colours.

3D capability isn't a consideration for me. That would have been in a follow up to AGA. Same with 16-bit audio (although hardware support for that clever 14-bit channel mixing that required loads of calibration would have been nice). Same with FPU sockets - leave them for the expansion boards.

Maybe I would have made the base A1200 1MB chip and 1MB fast. Especially so for the CD32.

The 68EC020 in the A1200 was a cost reduction thing. Shame that Commodore couldn't negotiate Motorola into using a faster chip - e.g., a 20MHz+ 68020/68030.
 

Offline AndyLandy

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2010, 07:36:01 PM »
Wasn't Paula the one that C= lost the original designs for, which is why it was never upgraded throughout the entire lifespan of the Amiga?
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Offline B00tDisk

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2010, 07:39:30 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;545849
In all honesty, the Atari Falcon was basically what the Amiga A1200 should have been. Had the A1200 been build to those specs, it would have been the bare minimum to survive... Commodore would have clung on much longer...


No.  Medhi Ali and Co. were out to sack and pillage C=.  A functional C= was worth less to them than it carved into pieces and sold off.

C= died exactly when they wanted it to.
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Offline Tumbleweed

Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2010, 07:49:31 PM »
I would hvae retained the A4000T, scrapped the desktop version. What I would have included as standard in the tower would have been a CD-Rom drive (not having one when almost all PC's did or could be easily upgraded to have one was a big reason for many to switch to the PC IMO). I would have added network capability, even if it was only dial up. Not being bale to connect my A4000D to the web easily in 1997 pushed me to build my own towerised PC with CD and US Robotics 33.k modem. I only got the A4000D hooked up to the web in 2007 when I got an x-surf card and broadband.

Jutst my two pennies.

Weed.
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Offline B00tDisk

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2010, 07:52:15 PM »
As someone else said; a low-spec and a high-spec 4000 box.  No "wedge" 1200, ever.

I'd have done the low-spec 4000 with on-board Zorro slots (no riser) and a couple of ISA slots (as an a2000), with a fixed CPU.  I'd have pushed for the 8mb Chip RAM but fixed it at 2 on the low spec machine.  28mhz 030, 2mb RAM (in a pair of 1mb SIMMs) as standard on the motherboard.  Maybe a CPU slot (as per the A3000 and A4000 as it was) - dunno.

The high-spec machine would've been much like it was, excepting:

A 2nd video slot, occupied by the AGA display chipset.  Future video cards could have gone there, thus "upgrading" at least the video chipset.  As soon as the PCI spec hit, (1993, just a year afterward) I'd have opened the riser/daughter board specs and allowed (if not created outright) a PCI riser card and moved away from Zorro.  Rather like the DCE G-Rex did, I'd have had a cable for "local bus" attachment to the (PowerPC) CPU card to ensure maximum speed.

Assuming this fictional C= survived, and the 4000 hadn't been outright replaced, I'd later have released a PPC card around '95 or so (whenever Apple made the transition) and ported the OS whole-hog to that.

That'd be the last AGA machine update.  After that, new systems altogether - probably farm out chip design to 3dfx (remember, we're now into the early late 1990s - '96 or thereabouts) for video, embrace GLide or OpenGL, etc. etc.  I'd also be investigating migration to Intel architecture, but now we're wandering far afield...
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Offline Hell Labs

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2010, 08:05:22 PM »
Quote from: AndyLandy;545915
Wasn't Paula the one that C= lost the original designs for, which is why it was never upgraded throughout the entire lifespan of the Amiga?

I thought that was the entire c64. Probably most stuff they made as well.
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline Khephren

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2010, 08:18:42 PM »
Quote from: tone007;545855
PCMCIA almost out of date in 1992?  That's only slightly ridiculous, considering you can still find new PCMCIA cards today (sure, most are CardBus by this point.)  I bet 600/1200 users everywhere appreciate the low cost to get their machines on the network and ease of data transfer via PCMCIA/CF adapters.


How long did you have to wait for drivers for those cards? 10 years?

CF cards? only slightly rediculous, as we are talking about 1992...

As for betting that 600/1200 users appreciate it....they do now....but 99%
of users never got to take advantage of that expensive 16bit bit of crap hanging off the side,
they moved to the PC that had a CD rom slot, and the ability to add one cheaply.
 

Offline tone007

Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2010, 10:04:12 PM »
So then it wasn't out of date, it was ahead of its time!
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Offline Khephren

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2010, 11:15:36 PM »
Quote from: tone007;545938
So then it wasn't out of date, it was ahead of its time!


lol. Like so much about the Amiga.

The only out of date thing a bout the Amiga eas Commodore itself ;)
 

Offline biggun

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2010, 11:23:02 PM »
In no particular order:

* Enable Chunky 8bit mode
Not difficult to do. THis would have helped games like DOOM a lot.
Low hanging fruit.

* Enhance Paula to support 16bit samples.
This would have been actually a very simple task if you still have the orignal design.
Paula fetches smaples anyhow in 16bit chunks so 16bit support would have been simple.
Low hanging fruit.
Adding more channels would have been more work.

* Add 16bit hicolor direct mode.
Enough Bandwidth was available for this mode.
Low hanging fruit.

* Blitter
Improving Blitter is very tricky.
Increasing clockrate would have been easy at the time but would bring no benefit without a clever buffering. Going for 32bit like some proposed here is quite a challange so it was not worth it at this time. Not a low hangiung fruit.
Nevertheless is was a bit dissapointing that the blitting power did not increase.

* Added fastmem 2MB to the A1200 would had made a big performance difference.
Yes, 2MB fast mem would have made the system a little more expensive but the performance change would been huge.


* The 3640 was to say it frankly "sad".
The 68040 bus interface is actually a lot easier than the 68030 interface. Having to convert to better 040 interface down to the 030 interface of the motherboard was a pain. The 68040 lost a significant part because of this. Would have been cool of the would have designed the A4000 for the new interface of the 040 and 060 CPUs...

* A line buffer to get double scan for free would have been cool.
But at that time this was not for free. Today we can do this for litttle and are doing it on the Natami for example - but at that time it would have increased cost.
I think it was a reasonable decision to build the system without it.

* Nevertheless Double modes (DoublePAL etc) could have been implemented slightly differently. The way they were implemented required a changed copperlist.
This could have been done without also - this way the AGA chipset could had been able to promote any old game the VGA. Its somewhat of a pity that they did not do it this way as this would have made running old games on VGA monitors so much easier.


All in all the AGA chipset was good.

The most missed features were certainly 8bit chunky.
16bit chunky would have been very nice and would have been simple to do also.
The original Blitter would have been perfect to support this mode.
Quite many people in the scene were surprised that AGA came without chunky support.


Cheers
Gunnar

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Offline kolla

Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 12:04:00 AM »
Quote from: Khephren;545923
How long did you have to wait for drivers for those cards? 10 years?


I bought PCMCIA ethernet card for A600/A1200, in early 1995 I think it was.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
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Offline Hell Labs

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2010, 12:11:31 AM »
Quote from: kolla;545948
I bought PCMCIA ethernet card for A600/A1200, in early 1995 I think it was.

Why does it have a temperature dial from a radiator on it?
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: How would you have designed AGA Amigas?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2010, 12:48:08 AM »
Quote from: Hell Labs;545950
Why does it have a temperature dial from a radiator on it?


Thats where you put in the ethernet fluid...

Actually, I think that is a 50 ohm terminator. You remove that, and your whole network goes  down.