Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets

[Hammer]

 don't know how to make this any clearer - China will not be going down any path that even gets them close to useing MS - they are not mad. If its X86 then it doesn't matter if it runs ice-cold and is fast as light - the Chinese will not have a bar of it.

Their action speaks for themselves in that regard e.g. AMD64 and MIPS and ‘etc’. I’m sure the Chinese can separate the HW and OS after all the Linux’s home HW is the X86.

It’s a matter of economics i.e. MS’s stuff is expensive but the hardware is not.  

Reduce the CPUs by this factor and then they either go for one of their own (I don't think this will be the case) or what?

Again, why did they invested on AMD64 based supercomputer?

But if your content to play selective quotes then go for it - say I contradict myself by also argueing that even though a X86 may be cooler it still is not in the running.

Refer to the statistics and trends.  

The Chinese have made it pretty clear that they do not want, nor can they afford, to go into MSes pocket. Using any form of X86, in short anything compatible to MS would in effect give their technological policies over to Billy Gates - and they ain't going to do it.

Again, I’m sure the Chinese can separate the HW and OS issues. The Chinese is not that stupid. Its wouldn’t take much for MS to port a Windows NT variant for PowerPC platform i.e. the Windows NT code base for PowerPC is already finished. A new HAL would be needed for Windows NT 4.0 to work on the current PowerPC based platforms. Another MS’s service e.g. WDM (part of NT5.X), DirectX and dotNET can be back ported to that HW platform. PowerPC wouldn’t be the insurance to keep MS at bay (refer to X-BOX 2).

Open sourced Windows CE for PowerPC would be another possibility.

Clues for the future PowerPC/X-BOX 2 and more Windows CE/PowerPC info refer to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/Embedded/ce.NET/evaluation/hardware/processors.asp

A game bias Windows CE variant was running on Sega Dreamcast’s SH4 processor.

Sources for Windows CE and PowerPC tool kits
http://www.apogee.com/windows_ce_toolkits.html  

http://www.microsoft.com/catalog/display.asp?subid=22&site=763
; Microsoft® Windows® CE Toolkit for Visual Basic® 6.0 (PowerPC support is included).

[Hammer]

coldfish wrote:
On the issue of  Windows' and the x86 ISA's future?

 Well, looking at M$'s intentions to use IBM processor tech in Xbox2,  perhaps M$ will use Xbox2 to leverage a position in the PPC market?  More likely though, is that PPC fits better into console architecture.

In the near future, I wouldn't be too surprised if the home PC as we currently know it doesnt exist. Replaced by simpler "black box" hybrid console systems.  
Given the choice, the average person would opt for a very low cost game/communications/entertainment hub that just works, over current, more tempramental hardware solutions.

Just ask Sony and M$, they're both onto the idea...

Note that Windows CE is already running on low end PowerPC processors. We also know that Sega’s Dreamcast was powered by a game tweaked Windows CE (with PowerVR GPU/~DirectX6**) on SH4 platform.
**or equivalent to DirectX6.

Reference;
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/Embedded/ce.NET/evaluation/hardware/processors.asp#PowerPC

One can see the potential of the X-BOX 2 on the PowerPC. There’s nothing new in MS OS running PowerPC**.  **Not factoring Windows NT 4.0(SP3) PowerPC Edition.

[Hammer]

@GregS

Some statistics regarding Windows, Linux and X86 refer to   http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2003-10/27-1.htm


"X86 server sales drive Western European server market"

"Both Windows and Linux continued to grow strongly - benefiting from their association with the x86 server market. Windows continues to command the lion's share of the unit market with 59.3%, while Linux has risen to 16.3% share".

[CodeSmith]

@DonnyEMU:

I disagree - XAML is basically a progression of DHTML, which means it's yet another huge MS security hole waiting to happen.  Sure, on the local machine it's a great idea, but how long before we see XAML support built into Outlook?

[DonnyEMU]

I see XAML as a progression of XML.. As far as security holes go have you noticed that this stuff gets compiled? You really need to take a better look at the technology before commenting on it and making such statements and look into how it handles transactional processing (which I didn't even go near in the example).

The reality of this is, that anytime you give users any kind of OS extendibility there is going to be option for security holes. We could talk about Amiga and it's file permissions or the fact that the Amiga was the first computer I had ever seen that got a virus.

Nothing ever is totally secure and if it is, it's probably useless. What I have learned with computers is that there where there is a will there is a way to "exploit" security... Whether it be linux windows amiga or any platform.

The idea of making a UI totally programmable as "objects" is a great idea..  I look forward to XAML support in Outlook or whatever.. I also look forward to the new "longhorn" role based permissions and security model which you really haven't put the two together and you should before making such comments..

[mdwh2]

Karlos wrote:
I know. I said they were faster in CPU terms (the systems our school got I mean), not prettier.

Its an irrelavent argument, you see, just like comaring the price/preformance of the A1Lite to x86 based ITX systems :-)

But the thing is that nowadays, an x86 system will beat the Amiga price/performancewise both in terms of raw CPU power *and* graphics (and just about everything else besides), where as with the A500 it was a case of having better graphics for the price.

I agree that a machine can still have a market even if it's more expensive, but it's not true that the Amiga has always been in this position.

[Karlos]

Yes, but it doesnt matter a rats bumhole if x86 cant run OS4 / MOS, does it?

-edit-

blimey, how far back up the thread was that anyway? :lol:

aslo I should say that for me, it was never the better CPU/graphics capabilities. I got my 1200 in 1993 - for me I got a "less powerful" piece of hardware (considering I could have gotten a 386DX/VGA for the same price) that ran a far more efficient and fun OS...

[mdwh2]

@DonnyEMU

Interesting. Nice to see that Windows may finally catch up with what MUI was doing ten years ago. I much prefer having a GUI that has a sensible layout system, without expecting me as the programmer to specify x/y coordinates for everything. I'll be curious to see how well Windows does this (eg, Java has layout managers too, but I find them more awkward compared with MUI).

I also prefer writing my interfaces in code - which of course means that the language must make this easy to do - rather than faffing around with "Visual" GUI editors.

The examples shown there are pretty basic though. Show me some code that easily creates a tabbedpane/propertysheet;)

[lempkee]

aargh guys... Amiga one Micro is an Amiga and it runs Amigaos4.. , if i wanted a pc i would have bought that.. for a penny at the mall.

i will buy the a1 micro for sure, and then i will flash it to ya face

[CodeSmith]

@DonnyEMU:

Well, I'll believe it when I see it.  Windows XP has the same ACL-based protection system (for everything from files to semaphores) as Windows NT.  ACL systems are known to be inherently more secure than the "rwx" model Unix uses (or the similar Amiga "rwed"), yet there are lots more viruses for WindowsXP than there are for any Unix.

Microsoft has traditionally focused on giving their customers as many features as possible, considering security to be of secondary importance; only recently has security been identified as something important.  My hope is that the company will latch on to this as eagerly as it did to web browser dominance (since it's pretty obvious we'll all be using MS operating systems for a long time to come), making Windows (and other MS programs) as secure as MSIE is dominant.

[mdwh2]

Continuing on from what I said, I had a look at another article. The last one there is the "Color Scroll". I was amused by the "Part of the challenge of writing such a program using either the Windows API or Windows Forms involves moving and resizing all the components of the window. This is an area where Avalon really shines." - wow, revolutionary!

At the end, it says "The most recent Win32 API version of this program (called COLORS1 in the fifth edition of Programming Windows) is 250 lines long. The Windows Forms version in Programming Microsoft Windows with C# is about 100 lines. This new version is only about 60 lines long, and I'm pretty sure that it can be pruned even more by using inheritance." - well, 55 lines I counted, if we ignore the blank lines to make comparisons a bit fairer.

"From 250 lines to 100 and now 60. And that, my friends, is what is commonly called progress." Hmm, the equivalent MUI program I quickly knocked up comes in at 53 lines;) (and yes, that includes the lines for declaring variables and header includes etc that you need to do in C, and no I haven't crammed everything together, it's still nicely formatted). As is typical of Microsoft developments, I can see this being a case of a huge step forward - but only from the point of view of Windows development.

[dammy]

by Karlos on 2003/11/18 21:13:37

Yes, but it doesnt matter a rats bumhole if x86 cant run OS4 / MOS, does it?

Not but it runs AROS just fine.

Dammy

[Karlos]

@Dammy

Which, IIRC is only at best sourcecode level compatible with 3.x for now :-(

-edit-

OS4 and MOS will evlove their own way as will AROS, do doubt. I dont really forsee compatibility improving over time.

[Wolfe]

Unless they can make it cost competive  with the other mini-itx mobos, it's DOA.  OS4's market is way too tiny to support it and A1.  Yes, it could be sold to Linux/BSD guys, but those folks will go the cheapest route.

Initially it will not be as cheap - no way, but that doesn't mean it will be DOA.  The C3 chip is a wimp in comparison to any G4.  Those who want small and performance are not even looking at Via's board.  And the P4 on the MicroATX still sucks more power and generates a lot of "HEAT".  The Linux/BSD guys will go the route that best supports their goals.

[Wolfe]

lempkee wrote:
aargh guys... Amiga one Micro is an Amiga and it runs Amigaos4.. , if i wanted a pc i would have bought that.. for a penny at the mall.

i will buy the a1 micro for sure, and then i will flash it to ya face

 :roflmao:       Yes!  Me to to!  :-P

[Wolfe]

Microsoft has traditionally focused on giving their customers as many features as possible, considering security to be of secondary importance; only recently has security been identified as something important.  My hope is that the company will latch on to this as eagerly as it did to web browser dominance (since it's pretty obvious we'll all be using MS operating systems for a long time to come), making Windows (and other MS programs) as secure as MSIE is dominant.

You might!  But not me - I will give up computing before I go back to a M$ OS again - "EVER"........