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Offline Kronos

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2003, 09:43:18 AM »
@Karlos

Seems like you are comparing 1990-prices .....

Do you know what a measly 286-8MHz did cost in 1987 ?
Well over 5000DM, and the A500 was only 1400DM, add a A590 20MB to
it and you wouls still be well below 5000.

And than you had a PC that was slower (sorry but the 286 wasn't anything
hot), and only had a Herkules-monochrom GFX-card.

A 386SX-16 (which was about on par with an A500+HD) did cost over 3000
when I bought my A500 for 800 in 1990, so there would have been enough
"space" for a cheap controller plus HD.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2003, 10:48:21 AM »
Quote

@Hammer - so let me summize - on OS which nobody loves (Windoze) which has never worked well ?

"Love" is not an intangible/rational factor.
To illustrate  an example, i.e. it works well enough and earning sustainable cash flow for www.locus.com.au**, solution6.com.au**, myob.com.au** and 'etc'.

Quote

and has always been sluggish,
 

Please quantify “Sluggish”.  

Quote

running on a hot-chip design is nevertheless unbeatable?

Note that MS Windows NT 4.0(up to SP3) runs PowerPC.

Quote

I just don't understand the logic, just where and how do you propose Windoze moves in the future - each move destroys its immense base.

In regards to “Windoze moves in the future - each move destroys its immense base”, have you tried MS Windows Longhorn** X86-32 build 40xx or have you tried MS Windows XP AMD64 Edition** (with WOW64)?

**Beta releases.

Within these product scope, the legacy (includes skills, tool chain, development and etc) is mostly preserved. Other Windows editions are an extension to the main product lines.

Note that MS has VirtualPC and FX32 style technology (via Intel) for future non-X86 Windows XP and Server editions.

Quote
Mac bit the bullet (finnally) and remerged as Mac OSx and in doing so fragmnted even its tiny market share - do you think MS could do a similar thing and not fall apart at the seams.

Unlike Apple, DotNET framework and VirtualPC technology is designed to unify the code base.  

Quote
The fact is that people have had a gut full of MS, anything that looks half good at the moment has a running chance

IF that was the realistic case then the OS/2 Warp 4.5 with Win32 compatibility(via third party add-on) may have a chance for a come back. But sadly, this is not the case.

Quote
in my opinion the A1 and OS4.0 look a lot better than Half-good!.

In regards to “looks”, an integrated DirOpus 5 with AOS4.0 style icon bar per windows would have been nice i.e. integrating some modern GUI elements.

Secondly, one of the main problems with AOS is its middleware support for application development.

Quote
From your comments it seems that you have the idea that things just keep on going on, that MS by some act of God has already planned an escape route and that the right time old Billy-boy will make his move

I’m still waiting for a creditable catalyst for change.

Quote
MS is dead - its just that it has a livily corpse.

Such statement is in the realms of "reality distortion field" (TM).  

To ram my point through;
 
Can AOS4.0 match Windows and Sound Storm/SB Audigy 2 ZS software suite?  
Can AOS4.0 match DirectX 9.0b?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OBDC functionality?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OLE functionality?
Is Oracle 9i available for AOS (middleware issues)?
Are there object oriented case tools for AOS?
Are there object oriented visual development environment for AOS (in the level Borland C Builder/J Builder/Delphi/Visual Studio dotNET 2003)?
Is there even a fully implemented Java VM for AOS?
Is there a Windows 2003 Server** level based on AOS? (**near brain dead server maintenance)
Can AOS deliver multi-user support?
Can AOS deliver roaming profiles?    
Can AOS drive wireless LAN?

Should I add some more?

Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.
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Offline GregS

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2003, 09:51:46 PM »
@Hammer
Quote

To ram my point through;

Can AOS4.0 match Windows and Sound Storm/SB Audigy 2 ZS software suite?
Can AOS4.0 match DirectX 9.0b?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OBDC functionality?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OLE functionality?
Is Oracle 9i available for AOS (middleware issues)?
Are there object oriented case tools for AOS?
Are there object oriented visual development environment for AOS (in the level Borland C Builder/J Builder/Delphi/Visual Studio dotNET 2003)?
Is there even a fully implemented Java VM for AOS?
Is there a Windows 2003 Server** level based on AOS? (**near brain dead server maintenance)
Can AOS deliver multi-user support?
Can AOS deliver roaming profiles?
Can AOS drive wireless LAN?

Should I add some more?

Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.


Well obviously not. But  is there any reason why this is fundementally beyond the Amiga? Did you think what I was saying meant that Windoze would be dropped just because OS4.0 was released?

My point is that MS has no future despite its apparent strength. On the otherhand amiga is tight and light, robust and (hopefully) very stable.

The future, recompiling the amiga on Taos, is something of a permanent solution for software development.

It may not be the Amiga, my point was that MS is in a historic fix and over the next period the opportunity to shove it into the dustbin is already here.

Quote
Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.


Yes it need not compete - that is the point surely.  It need not compete because the problem is with MS, so long as the new Amiga  exists, so long as it can be seen for what it is - that is enough to begin with.  The dissatisfaction with MS is also there, so part of this is resolved over time without head to head competition taking place at all.

Remember also the whole small personal computer thing started within the "leasure computing" market - starting there does not mean ending there.

Quote

"Love" is not an intangible/rational factor.


Well how about hate - that is how I would describe the MS experience in terms of those that have to use it (I am talking of people who have never heard of the Amiga and barely know the Mac exists).  Intangible, perhaps - irrational - I don't think so.

 
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2003, 11:19:59 PM »
Quote

Kronos wrote:
@Karlos

Seems like you are comparing 1990-prices .....


Possibly. I think it was 1989 when they bought those damn 286s. They were 25MHz systems IIRC (maybe 20?)

Quote

And than you had a PC that was slower (sorry but the 286 wasn't anything
hot), and only had a Herkules-monochrom GFX-card.


I know. I said they were faster in CPU terms (the systems our school got I mean), not prettier.

Its an irrelavent argument, you see, just like comaring the price/preformance of the A1Lite to x86 based ITX systems :-)
int p; // A
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2003, 11:30:16 PM »
If someone can get a 1Ghz PPC Mini-ITX out of the door for about £100, then they have a good chance...

My £70 800Mhz C3 based Mini-ITX really does rock!!! I was really expencting the worst, but in terms of performance it (PhotoShop testing) keeps up with my cousin's 600Mhz G3 Mac no problems.

Offline Damion

Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2003, 11:34:16 PM »
The A500 "smoked" the PC for only a very short
time, I remember playing Dune 2 on my friends
286 w/VGA and SB, the graphics and CD speech/
music BLEW AWAY the A500 version royally...
at that time (early 90's) even owners of high-
spec amigas got the shaft in comparison to
comparable PC/Mac game titles. Lower resolutions,
crappy sound, etc.

And from my recollection a "usable" PC was
way more expensive than any A500.

--edit--

The point: The price will have to be cut way
down for the "mainstream" to even consider
it. Most of my friends remember the amiga
(circa early 90's) as a slow, overpriced
machine with poor support and crappy game
conversions...the last thing they will do is
scream "OMG" and dump $1000 on an A1 'lite'
setup.
 

Offline Tomas

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2003, 11:45:18 PM »
remember that those via x86 cpus are dead slow even comparing to a g3.. a g4 clocked at same speed will be way faster
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2003, 11:48:26 PM »
Quote

Tomas wrote:
remember that those via x86 cpus are dead slow even comparing to a g3.. a g4 clocked at same speed will be way faster


Seriously, they are not as bad as you think! :-)

Offline Hammer

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2003, 01:19:34 AM »
Quote

Well obviously not. But is there any reason why this is fundementally beyond the Amiga?

In regards to light weight OS, one can apply a similar reasoning to Microsoft (e.g. Windows XP Embedded) .

Amiga’s “fundamental” issues are not the real issues. The real issues are the matter of economics (includes market*) issues.

*National issues in some countries i.e Japan, South Korea, China, European Union, Russia and ‘etc’ (the list is made up of basically the countries who missed out of  the Information Revolution).      
 
Quote

My point is that MS has no future despite its apparent strength.

“To control the future one has to control the present”.

Quote

 On the otherhand amiga is tight and light, robust and (hopefully) very stable.

Stability is usually proportional to the features it provides.

Quote
The future, recompiling the amiga on Taos, is something of a permanent solution for software development.

Do they have a reasonable level of Integrated Development Environment?

Do they have a reasonable level of middleware support and ecosystems?

Note that the distribution dotNET framework is now here. Could you point me to the download of runtime ecosystem for the competing product?

Quote
It may not be the Amiga, my point was that MS is in a historic fix and over the next period the opportunity to shove it into the dustbin is already here.

Define "here".  The market doesn’t like empty void.
The world operated without MS’s market domination a few years ago, thus there’s nothing new under the sun.

Quote
Well how about hate - that is how I would describe the MS experience in terms of those that have to use it

The some reasoning can be applied on all operating system products. No operating system is perfect. It’s a matter economics and dollar signs.

To illustrate an example with Linux i.e. dependency issues and flawed driver modelling. Needs a higher competency skills to maintain this particular solution.  

Quote

(I am talking of people who have never heard of the Amiga and barely know the Mac exists). Intangible, perhaps - irrational - I don't think so.

Have you done a statistical count? Have you done any SWOT analysis on other Operating Systems?

In regards X86 (due the inclusion of Intel into the discussion); does hate automatically equates to hatred of X86?

IF they hate the said product why don’t they buy/ switch completely to another alternative product? Nothing is stoping them in downloading/purchasing SUSE Linux, Lindows 4.0, Mandrake Linux, MorphOS, OS/2 Warp 4.5, BeOS, MacOS X, QNX, OpenBSD, NetBSD and ‘etc’.

Just don’t complain about the lack/little of vertical and horizontal market support, lack of driver support, lack/little of entrainment/application/development titles, incompatible hardware and 'etc'.

Changing the “real world” is a lot harder than changing the “reality distortion field”.
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Offline GregS

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2003, 07:16:04 AM »
@Hammer
Quote

Changing the “real world” is a lot harder than changing the “reality distortion field”.


We seem to be at almighty cross purposes - I am saying that MS is in a blind ally because of its size and domination. That like the last remaining super-power they have nothing to transform themselves into, that despite their strength they have no future.

I am not saying that Amiga is going to be the wave of the future, but that wave is certainly already on its way and Amiga happens to be in a good position.

China has not only rejected MS, but gone for a form of Linux and the PPC, Russia and Eastern Europe are almost Linux by default (server wise anyhow).

Far from missing the information revolution, they are in a position to reap much of the benefit without being caught up in the expensive MS merry-go-round (and it is very expensive, suit-driven and unproductive).

You have to see this as an unfolding thing not a given. Where China goes, the rest of Asia will follow, so to I think the whole of Eastern Europe. They are set to gain the benefits of the new wave of technology precisely because they lagged behind on the first (a far from unusual circumstance in history I may add).

As for the Taos solution, the plan, I believe is to develop AmigaOS up until not only is it all written in vanilla C but that it has precsiely the development tools, drivers etc that allow it to be verstile in the context of this next wave of technologicasl innovation ---- then I believe, the plan is to recompile the whole thing within Taos a processor agnostic system which has the virtue, because of level of abstraction, of keeping software permanently available regardless of processor technology or indeed OS development.

Please get the big picture. For the next big move is not away from X86, but away from processor dependence. PPC offers a stepping stone no-more, and I would say the same for Linux.

The first step is to break away from the money pit that is MS development and maintenence. In short, business that is doing well with this setup will be the last to change, it is the businesses that cannot afford, or find MS a woeful drain on resources, that will be sniffing out alternatives when they become viable, technically, financially and have created a level of expertise (ie amongst kids, hobbyists and the like).

The meaning of revolution being to overturn, not the result of winning in head to head competition.

I was there for the first computer revolution to PCs, I know that business went with IBM/MS/Intel out of fear, and false economies. Ironically the hopelessness of the OS, the incrediable bad design of the PC and the make it faster attitude of Intel all combined to create an explosion in demand for better hardware - just to make the OS and its programs appear half-useful.

The level of hardware development is completely out of wack with the OS and program environment. Hardware is flying to the moon while the OS/program environment glides along in wooden sailing ships. As I said history has the habit of catching up with itself.

Put all this together, the China move, the inroads Linux is making at the perifery, the growing prominance of PPC architecture (especially when linked to China), the be-suited expensive and haphazard MS world in general, the squeezing out of small developers the lack of software innovation as a whole. Then you don't have to be Nostrodamus to read the future (whatever you control in the present).

A revolution in technology is not just a revolution in technology but also a change in who is doing what and how they are doing it. Tens of thousands of talented programmers either cannot get a job, or have a job where they do nothing but hack work, 100s of thousands of would be no-professional programmers are shut out of doing anything substantial on MS (because of the way MS has structured the "market"). Meanwhile 100s thousands of  businesses are dependant on computers which are costly to maintain and unreliable. Likewise a sizable part of planet is ready for the information revelution but has been effectively locked out by MS.

Just how do you read this as putting MS in a good long term position - I don't, hence I am happy to announce it a zombie (the walking dead). There is nothing it can do, no rabbits it can pull out of the hat, no matter how fast and small, that are not immediately bogged-down in the quagmire that is MS - it is a economic question, MS will hold on tightly to anything which is good until it has strangled it - it cannot do anything else - it is simply to big and rapacious to do anything else (a bit like the Bushite US really).

Greg Schofield, Canberra Australia
 

Offline lempkee

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2003, 07:42:54 AM »
just read that someone said something about an itx for under 100 quid .., just wnted to say that its more than likely such will never be the pricing of an a1 or an pegasos , sure its sad but wont happen unless a real market evolves and if that will happen..i have my doubts..

i dont even think we will see an a1 micro for under 300 quid.

Whats up with all the hate!
 

Offline GregS

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2003, 07:51:35 AM »
@lempkee I agree that we won't see one for a good long while, a new market is however developing and when it does then things may shift down quite a bit.

China is going PPC and at this moment the microA1 is I think the only itx in existence, the A1 itself is one of only a small number of PPC boards about and the Chinese will not be buying any of them until the price is competative. However, IBM is out on a limb and the dollar signs are ever-present with the size of the potenmtial China Market - major shifts are due - perhaps Amiga will ride the wind when they come (we are talking of less than 5 years).
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2003, 08:09:38 AM »
Quote
China has not only rejected MS, but gone for a form of Linux and the PPC, Russia and Eastern Europe are almost Linux by default (server wise anyhow).

Such case is not abnormal since a couple of years ago government entities was with Unix. There’s still heavy piracy rates for Windows in the countries mentioned.

Now some statistics...

Refer
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7483572763.html

Quote
Far from missing the information revolution, they are in a position to reap much of the benefit without being caught up in the expensive MS merry-go-round (and it is very expensive, suit-driven and unproductive).

Open Source is a quick way to catch up with information oriented nations due to the free use of labour.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2003, 08:23:54 AM »
Quote
China is going PPC


If that's true why have they just spent the last few months wooing AMD and the Athlon64?

Offline Hammer

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2003, 08:35:27 AM »
Quote

As for the Taos solution, the plan, I believe is to develop AmigaOS up until not only is it all written in vanilla C but that it has precsiely the development tools, drivers etc that allow it to be verstile in the context of this next wave of technologicasl innovation ---- then I believe, the plan is to recompile the whole thing within Taos a processor agnostic system which has the virtue, because of level of abstraction, of keeping software permanently available regardless of processor technology or indeed OS development.

Such a solution will be competing with MONO**(OpenSourced dotNET) developments. **Available for Win32 and Linux.

Quote

Please get the big picture. For the next big move is not away from X86, but away from processor dependence. PPC offers a stepping stone no-more, and I would say the same for Linux.

For embedded processor statistics refer to
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7301151332.html

"What we see here, is x86 in first place and ARM in second -- both growing, but with x86 maintaining a 9% lead over ARM. Incidentally, "ARM" includes Intel's highly popular StrongARM and XScale processors."

Rankings
1. X86, 1st position with 2nd growth rate.
2. ARM, 2nd position with 1st growth rate.
3. PPC, 3rd position with 3rd growth rate.

Current situation in X86 and ARM is closely linked to Intel’s market power**.

Quote

Just how do you read this as putting MS in a good long term position - I don't, hence I am happy to announce it a zombie (the walking dead).

Refer to http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7483572763.html

That is; "VDC finds Microsoft, Wind River in "dead heat" as #1 embedded OS".  Windows CE is now an open source development…

Quote

Put all this together, the China move, the inroads Linux is making at the perifery, the growing prominance of PPC architecture (especially when linked to China),

China’s long term desire would be their MIPs based processor.

Quote

 the be-suited expensive and haphazard MS world in general, the squeezing out of small developers the lack of software innovation as a whole

MS has not squeezed out small developers i.e. refer to IE6’s third party licensees**…

Note that Apple has developed their own media player and web browser in their MacOS X. The only difference is that Apple’s OS not running the dominant HW platform.

**Help -> About Internet Explorer.

As for lack  innovation issue. Plenty of OS vendors would be guilty of this
1. MacOS X's kernal is BSD based.
2. MacOS's GUI is based on Xerox's WIMP concepts.
3. Amiga's Workbench is based on  Xerox's WIMP concepts.
4. Linux, *nix like OS for i386 - Paraphrase from Linus i.e. the purpose of Linux.
5. MorphOS, a clone of AOS.

Microsoft’s main innovation is opening up the HW PC market for clones.

Quote

"There is nothing it can do, no rabbits it can pull out of the hat, no matter how fast and small, that are not immediately bogged-down in the quagmire that is MS"

Refer to open sourced "Windows CE"...
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Offline CodeSmith

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Re: Thoughts on the A1Lite and mainstream markets
« Reply #29 from previous page: November 17, 2003, 09:02:58 AM »
@Bloodline:

I think it's too early to tell what China really wants.  Just a few months ago they were all about their homegrown Dragon CPU, more recently we've heard Alan's story of how interested in PPC they are and we've also had reports, as you said, of their interest in 64 bit Wintel chips (I've also heard they're looking at Itanic2).  I think they basically want to see how to best grow their IT infrastructure, since they're effectively going from zero, and they don't want to discount anything.  Very smart move, I think.