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Offline MskoDestny

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2010, 03:41:22 AM »
Quote from: Speelgoedmannetje;542542
I've got both a Genesis and an Amiga, and I must say the games that get the most out of the Amiga hardware (like Elfmania, Fighting Spirit and Kid Chaos) deliver better gfx,

Kid Chaos is impressive given the limitations of the hardware, but I don't think it can match the better looking platformers on the Genesis like Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles or Vectorman. Elfmania is more colorful than your average Genesis game and the animation is quite smooth. They did a good job of pulling off some parallax with only a single playfield. So I'll give you that one. Fightin' Spirit doesn't seem particularly impressive though.

Really the only things the OCS video hardware had going for it for 2D games over the Genesis were color selection and the amount of RAM directly accessible by the video hardware. Any pixel can be any of the 32 colors in the palette and palette entries are 12-bit whereas on the Genesis a given tile/sprite is limited to using a single palette of 15 colors and the palette entries are only 9-bit. However, there are 4 such palettes and you choose which palette to use on a per-tile and per-sprite basis (so 61 colors onscreen unless you resort to "tricks").

Now if you want two independent playfields (for parallax scrolling for instance), the color selection advantage of OCS is greatly reduced since each playfield is limited to a 7 color palette (+1 background color). The Genesis hardware doesn't have this problem. Also, the OCS sprite hardware is pretty lame compared to the Genesis. OCS supports 8 3-color  or 4 15-color 16-pixel wide sprites per line. The Genesis supports up to 20 sprites or 320 pixels worth of sprites per line whichever comes first in sizes of 8,16 or 32 pixels wide with a limit of 80 sprites per frame. Genesis sprites always use a 15 color palette. You can work around these limitations to an extent using the blitter, but on OCS/ECS you'll probably run into bandwidth limits before you get into the neighborhood of what the Genesis hardware can do.

Fighting games are probably one area where OCS fairs pretty well as parallax isn't as important and you don't need many sprites. Further, all the RAM available to the video hardware allows you to do smooth animations on relatively large sprites.

Now the OCS hardware was a lot more flexible than the Genesis hardware making it much more appropriate for a general purpose computer. Making a GUI system work on the Genesis hardware would require some sacrifices and even then would probably perform poorly in comparison.

Quote
BUT many Genesis games are better looking because they were well developed and were put on a cartridge (which saves A LOT of processing power and memory).

Well it definitely does wonders for load times. I doubt it made much of a difference for per-frame processing though. The A500 had a reasonable amount of RAM. Enough that you can load all your data for a single level up front and then just work out of RAM. As for using less memory, that's definitely true, but the Genesis had a lot less of that (64K for the 68K, 64K for the VDP and 8K for the Z80) so it's a bit moot for comparing the two.
 

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2010, 08:09:30 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;542566
I don't know of anyone who didn't upgrade their OS because they had to remove the old kickstart chips and insert new ones.  Macs had ROMs socketed on the motherboard as well.


Macs had roms that were patched by the upgraded os at boot. pulling the roms and replacing them is only needed to run os versions newer than are supported, and is pointless. os 8.1 on an se/30 anyone?
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline Jope

Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2010, 08:58:26 AM »
Quote from: tone007;542535
All of the 4000s I've seen have had standard-sized HD drives and a normal bay free.

Most of the early ones sold in European countries had the A2000 style 1,5 height mechanism. I've personally seen more of those than the 1" high ones.

Quote from: Hell Labs;542637
Macs had roms that were patched by the upgraded os at boot. pulling the roms and replacing them is only needed to run os versions newer than are supported, and is pointless. os 8.1 on an se/30 anyone?

The AmigaOS also patches the ROMs at boot. Setpatch. Of course not quite the same, as you can't have a higher major version of workbench than is your kickstart..
 

Offline chiark

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2010, 12:06:59 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;542520
Speaking of display stuff, considering you could support 6-bitplanes on ECS, I think EHB was a pretty stupid idea. Why not just have 64 distinct palette entries instead?


Because there were only 32 colour registers and it was, like much of the amiga stuff, a cool hack you could do to the existing hardware without breaking things.
Which leads me to...

1.  Too much attention on backward compatibility...  You'd have thought they'd learnt from the 128!  Have the balls to say "this is the next big thing" and have a revolution, not just evolution.  This explains Paula, AGA, you name it...

2.  Strategy.  They didn't have a clear strategy, which meant marketing sucked.  You can't market if you don't know what you're selling to whom...

3. Lack of R&D, closely linked with 1+2.  The more I think what Dave Haynie and his team achieved despite commodore management, the more I am utterly amazed...
Celebrating 21... no, make that 27... years of Amiga use
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2010, 12:22:31 PM »
Quote from: Hell Labs;542637
Macs had roms that were patched by the upgraded os at boot. pulling the roms and replacing them is only needed to run os versions newer than are supported, and is pointless. os 8.1 on an se/30 anyone?


See: SetPatch ;)
int p; // A
 

Offline Crom00

Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2010, 12:53:12 PM »
1) Goofball policy of : "Read my lips, no new chips" while developing A3000. Especially when you consider C= fabbed many of the parts they needed.
2) No DSP in A4000/A3000
3) Late to the party release of AGA.
 

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2010, 06:26:19 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;542662
See: SetPatch ;)

Not the same. I'd like to see 3.9 run on a 1.3 kickstart rom.
A1200 Computer Combat. OS3.0. No accelerator, no fastram, mouse soon. And ebaying it.
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2010, 06:56:16 PM »
Quote from: Hell Labs;542706
Not the same. I'd like to see 3.9 run on a 1.3 kickstart rom.

Me too!! Or 3.1 at least  :lol:
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2010, 06:58:01 PM »
Elfmania was more a demo than a game: gameplay really suck... And gamedesign too: the characters'moves really look ridiculous, etc...

Megadrive may have had less colours stuff, it's true games. Not only technical demos. I won't say there weren't good games but the greatest technical achievements were well... just technical demos: gameplay really sucked most of the time.

And a lot of games had crappy technical stuff + bad gameplay (compare street fighter 2 on the megadrive vs any (even AGA) versions... no parallax floor, no all musics, no all sound effects, animation not smooth at all, and so on... and real bad gameplay)
 

Offline Dr_Righteous

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2010, 07:41:08 PM »
The cross-linking of functions between the custom chips.
Soldering NiCD clock batteries to the mainboards
Use of SMT custom chips in ANY model.
- Doc

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Mac Mini 1.5GHz, that might run MorphOS someday, when the fools who own it come to the realization that 30 minutes just isn\'t enough time to play with it enough to decide whether or not you like it enough to cough up $200.

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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2010, 12:45:01 AM »
See: Blizkick ;)
Mac Mini G4 (1.5GHz, 64MB VRam, 1GB Ram): MorphOS 3.6
Powerbook 5.8 (15", 1.67GHz, 128MB VRam, 1GB Ram): MorphOS 3.8.

Windows-free since 2011-2014 (Damn you Netflix!)
 

Offline smerf

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2010, 03:00:30 AM »
Quote from: runequester;542361
So what are your contenders for the worst 3 ideas in the history of the amiga?

Lets limit it to the Commodore era, and keep it at hardware/software as much as possible.


Hi,

1st -- The Amiga 2000
2nd-- The sidecar
3rd-- Amiga 3000 without the AGA chipset or ide support.

Also the PC10 and the PC20 they invested to much money trying to compete with the PC clones, they should have just supported the Amiga by making productivity software.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

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Offline marcfrick2112

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2010, 03:56:48 AM »
Well, everything I wanted to say has been said already :)

Paula not getting even a minor upgrade... ever..... I'm amazed at what the old girl can do, but still .....

Yup, wasting valuable time and money on PC clones....

Too many games, and a few apps. that refused to work on any Amiga with expanded RAM, faster proc., HD, etc. Multi-disk games that only supported DF0: (I mean, REALLY???) :furious:

Too few games that supported 2 (or more) button controllers. I still enjoy Deluxe Galaga with my 3rd-party CD32 controller.. you can change from music to SFX, adjust volume, skip tracks, pause... all from the controller....
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A4000 w/ WarpEngine / 82MB , OS3.1
A4000 16MB, OS 3.9
A1200 , \'030 / 10MB
A1200 (stock)

CD32 :)

...And a very sick 4000T
 

Offline quarkx

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2010, 07:09:28 AM »
Quote from: smerf;542786
Hi,

1st -- The Amiga 2000
2nd-- The sidecar
3rd-- Amiga 3000 without the AGA chipset or ide support.

Also the PC10 and the PC20 they invested to much money trying to compete with the PC clones, they should have just supported the Amiga by making productivity software.

smerf


First, The A2000 was a great upgrade for businesses, way ahead of its time. The Video Toaster was one such card that without the A2000, would never have been made, in fact if Dave had not taken on the A2000(he was suppose to originally work on the A500), the Amiga would have died right there and then. The funny thing is that the A2000 is by far, the most expandable Amiga ever made and the upgrades are relatively cheap and easy compared to all the other models.

If you read the book "On the Edge" you would have a very different view on this.
The Colt, PC10 and PC 20 were all made by Commodore Germany, without any knowledge
or sanction from Commodore US, and all the higher ups. The only reason it even got out the door, was the fact that in Germany at that time, Commodore could sell anything they wanted to and the Germans would just buy it without question. That is why the C116 was only sold there, CBM used Germany as their dumping Zone for all the products they didn't think would sell anywhere else in the world, but they could sell them in Germany. After the Commodore PC's started to sell, they then released them in limited quantities elsewhere in the world.
I have Amiga stuff for sale at http://amigalounge.com. You can follow my builds there also.
 

Offline tone007

Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2010, 09:14:14 AM »
Quote from: quarkx;542799
The funny thing is that the A2000 is by far, the most expandable Amiga ever made and the upgrades are relatively cheap and easy compared to all the other models.


No.
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Offline delshay

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Re: Top 3 worst ideas in Amiga history?
« Reply #74 from previous page: February 12, 2010, 10:14:25 AM »
Quote from: save2600;542581
No, PC's have had multi-button games for a looooong time, but maybe not as far back as I am thinking. But wait... yeah, pretty much Gravis and Logitech, I remember having 2 buttons and that scenario was even standard on systems as far back as the Apple ]['s.

In any event, by the time the A500, CDTV, A1200 & CD32 came out, 2+ buttons for gaming should have been the standard. I'm just surprised that it wasn't the standard starting with the A1000.


when using anologue joypad i  have four buttons (gravis anologue pro). when using digital joystick (modifyed) i have two fire buttons.
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power is nothing without control