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Author Topic: Why we dont have GAME development contests  (Read 18167 times)

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Offline BigBenAussie

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #59 from previous page: December 09, 2009, 07:13:53 AM »
@ami_junkiet
Quote
I think going down the route of limiting the hardware to the Amiga OCS or ECS would be fine, you could even just have a segment for OCS, ECS, AGA, for me the real Amigas are the ones that were made by Commodore and I for one would be well up for making a game on the Amiga.

Yeah, I hear you. It's hard to think of an Amiga as anything other than Commodore. Wish the names would somehow re-unite, if only for nostalgia. Say if Commodore could at least release a decent case for next gen AmigaOS machines. Can't say I like their current desktop cases covered with stickers...yuck. But I digress.

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Anyone want to team up? I think that the problem is that people still feel that the Amiga should be viewed as a viable platform for selling games ... not any more, we are now in the same boat as MSX, C64 and Spectrum users so lets enjoy that status and start making cool games that run on old hardware which everyone has.

We're only in the same boat if you totally ignore next gen systems, which do have some sort of future. Not entirely sure what it is yet, but they are here and they are likely to be around for a long time, if only because of development delays. ;-)

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Even better limit the competition to using only certain tools. Give people contraints and they start to think around the box. So come on you old farts! Lets get the Amiga gaming competition going and stop sitting on our arses complaining that there is no real value to it. I am busy working but I will still find time to do my music which brings in no money to myself but I enjoy it and I can give something to the Amiga community.

Ok. I'll give you a constraint or limitation. Get your newly constructed game working on an iPhone and win a prize. Not what you want to hear, I grant you. Look guys, I wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do.
 

Offline skurk

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2009, 08:08:46 AM »
Quote
The Communists demanded that everyone has delivered according to the possibilities and took necessary.


Well, I happen to know a thing or two about communism, and... well, just... uh, no.  Stop talking.

Politics aside, and (almost) back to the thread: I like the idea of a time or size limited production; where quality isn't necessarily top priority.  No reason to raise the bar too high just yet.

- How many out there are capable of making a simple game?  If it's just one or two, there's no point in having a compo...

- To make things interesting for everyone, should we have a bounty?  I can contribute with a couple of €'s or some old hardware.

- What set of rules, limitations?  Who will decide the winner?
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Offline Cammy

Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2009, 09:07:24 AM »
Fine, let's do it then. How's this for an idea?

You have two weeks to make a Christmas themed game using Backbone. It only takes a few hours to understand the program, it's easy to install, and games will run on any classic Amiga system (RAM permitting, depending on the bulk of the game), or through UAE.

The theme is Christmas. The limitation is Backbone. The time you have to complete it is two weeks. Whoever makes the best game at the end (we'll have a poll in the forum so people can download the games and vote for their favourite) wins some prizes that we can donate to the prize pool. I have a few spare bits and pieces I don't mind giving away for prizes, like doubles of a couple of CD32 games, some new control pads, Amiga/Aros/MorphOS-compatible USB Missile Launchers, a box of unopened floppy disks... You get the idea. I think from all our left-over junk we can come up with some nice prize packs.

I know not everyone is into Christmas, but the game you make doesn't have to be religious or anything, it's just for fun, and you've got some good royalty-free characters to use like Santa Claus, Christmas Elves, Snowmen, or just a kid in winter clothes. Collectables could be presents, toys, candy canes, tree decorations, roast turkeys. If you want to be a smarty pants and give Santa a machine gun and have him riding an angry mutant reindeer feel free, be creative.

So, how about it? It's just over two weeks until Christmas, and seriously you CAN make a few levels of a game in that amount of time with Backbone, it's that easy!

If others like this idea, we'll make a new thread about it and everyone can get to work.

Imagine having a few extra games to play on Christmas day on your favourite computer!
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2009, 11:09:48 AM »
@Cammy

just ignore the troll :-)

@skurk
Quote from: skurk;532912

In my opinion, one of the problems is that the Amiga is too easy to program.  Compared to the C64, you don't need double interrupts to get a stable raster, and you don't need to time the hell out of a loop to open the borders or multiplex a few sprites.  Coding the Amiga is in fact so easy, it's no fun making "ordinary things" on it anymore.  That's one of the reasons I'm sticking to the demoscene, to push the hardware instead of just scrolling playfields and checking for sprite collisions.

That's what I was hinting about in my previous post, find a way to attract idiots like me.  Introduce limitations, and I'm all in.


I don't agree with you completely. I think that making Amiga games may be easy but making high quality amiga games may be quite hard. E.g. you can count the games with AGA quarter-pixel scrolling with the fingers of one hand.

Of course you can do a smooth scroll game with a few sprites with just 4 colours that don't look pretty. Or you can do a smooth scroll with microscopic sprites. Or a jerky scroll with big sprites. But you won't see many games with smooth scroll, big and colourful sprites that take almost full screen and also move with quarter pixel scrolling.

What about colours? I don't see many games with ham8 sprites/backgrounds.

What about the frames of animation? Having decent big animations could require hundreds of different images being decompressed realtime to chipram.

What about special effects like neogeo-like zooming done with some help of blitter help perhaps (like the author of brian the lion did with the rotozoom)? And transparency? Perhaps adding some textures to the floor like streetfighterII did?

You are probably assuming the use of lo-res but why not make a hires or hires-laced game? With hi-res you could still make half pixel scrolling. You would have to be careful writting to chipram when the screen is not being drawn to gain chipmem speed and

I think that if your set quality level to 8bit standards it may be easy to make a game but making a quality amiga game can be very hard if you want to make something more than scroll a pityful small sprite jerking at 2 frames.


I think that even with a 060 accelerator you would have hard time making hires-laced games.

-making a 640x480 diablo clone. You could have basic tiles in chipram and apply a mask to make darker or lighter the sections and copy the tiles with the blitter but it would still be a challenge due to the high number of frames from the main characters.

-making a neogeo like fighting game with a decent number of colours fullscreen zooming, animated background, a texture in the floor, parallax scrolls and lots of animations would need decent coding skills. All moving with quarter pixel scrolling, not just the background.

-making a good horizontal scrolling game with lots of parallax, transparency for smoke, big sprites that take the entire screen with animation... with 256colours and/or ham8. And quarter pixel scrolling!

-making strategy games like starcraft run at 640x480 and 256colours/ham8 with smooth scrolling, fog...

I think that coding for >= 16bits requires breaking some limits. 8bit games are quite simpler than >=16bit ones and you can't content yourself making a scroll that would be hard to do on a c64 and saying "oh I have made a scroll that is hard to do on a c64 so my game is done". Making high quality amiga games takes more than a single-pixel scroll with 2 diminute 4-colour sprites jerking at 2 frames.
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Offline rockersuke

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 11:16:34 AM »
Downloading and printing Backbone docs!

Ooops! Amigaguide only, cannot print them here at job ^_^'

...No, wait. Winguide can save the day. Messy format, but it will do!

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Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2009, 12:49:35 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;533161
-making a 640x480 diablo clone. You could have basic tiles in chipram and apply a mask to make darker or lighter the sections and copy the tiles with the blitter but it would still be a challenge due to the high number of frames from the main characters.

Doing isometric tile scrolling requires transparent blitting ability for the blitter.  The blitter has very, VERY poor performance doing transparent blits.  We'd need a CPU-blit routine like GameSmith used.

Quote from: Crumb;533161
-making a neogeo like fighting game with a decent number of colours fullscreen zooming, animated background, a texture in the floor, parallax scrolls and lots of animations would need decent coding skills. All moving with quarter pixel scrolling, not just the background.

Fullscreen zooming often requires chunky-pixel graphics.  Quarter-pixel scrolling requires it be done in low-resolution graphics.

Quote from: Crumb;533161
-making a good horizontal scrolling game with lots of parallax, transparency for smoke, big sprites that take the entire screen with animation... with 256colours and/or ham8. And quarter pixel scrolling!

Alpha-blending for fog requires chunky-pixel graphics at the very least (if not hardware accelerated alpha), AGA sprites aren't that wide (only 64-pixels maximum and 16 colors shared between them), parallax requires dual-playfield mode (which limits the display to 15 foreground and 16 background colors), and HAM8 doesn't support horizontal scrolling (if you try it gives you weird color fringes at the edges).

Quote from: Crumb;533161
-making strategy games like starcraft run at 640x480 and 256colours/ham8 with smooth scrolling, fog...

I think that coding for >= 16bits requires breaking some limits. 8bit games are quite simpler than >=16bit ones and you can't content yourself making a scroll that would be hard to do on a c64 and saying "oh I have made a scroll that is hard to do on a c64 so my game is done". Making high quality amiga games takes more than a single-pixel scroll with 2 diminute 4-colour sprites jerking at 2 frames.

4-color sprites are more numerous than 16-color sprites.  Doing chunky-to-HAM8 requires at least a PowerPC accelerator.  Doing 640x480 with sprites requires interlaced sprite support which is not available in AmigaOS 3.9 or earlier.

Almost all of the special effects you have named would work better on a graphics card than on AGA or would require a 500+ MHz PowerPC to implement.  IMHO, if you need a 500+ MHz machine to implement those features, you're better off using something other than an Amiga. :(
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2009, 02:04:28 PM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;533172
Doing isometric tile scrolling requires transparent blitting ability for the blitter.  The blitter has very, VERY poor performance doing transparent blits.  We'd need a CPU-blit routine like GameSmith used.

You can use the blitter to draw just the pair or odd tiles and draw the middle ones using the cpu.

Quote
Fullscreen zooming often requires chunky-pixel graphics.  Quarter-pixel scrolling requires it be done in low-resolution graphics.

I think it's possible to do half-pixel horizontal scrolling with 640x480. Anyway I was thinking about lo-res for that kind of game, for diablo or strategy games hi-res is more useful than for these.

I could live with low res if other features are implemented.

Quote
Alpha-blending for fog requires chunky-pixel graphics at the very least (if not hardware accelerated alpha), AGA sprites aren't that wide (only 64-pixels maximum and 16 colors shared between them), parallax requires dual-playfield mode (which limits the display to 15 foreground and 16 background colors), and HAM8 doesn't support horizontal scrolling (if you try it gives you weird color fringes at the edges).

The fun is about making something exciting regardless of these well known limits. Ham8 games were released like Olofight. You can do parallax without using dual-playfield mode. You don't have to draw everything using hardware sprites.

Quote
4-color sprites are more numerous than 16-color sprites.  Doing chunky-to-HAM8 requires at least a PowerPC accelerator.  Doing 640x480 with sprites requires interlaced sprite support which is not available in AmigaOS 3.9 or earlier.

I know the sprite limits but you can draw more "sprites" with the blitter or the cpu. You can also reuse the sprites. You don't need PPC to make chunky2ham8, lots of modern scene demos use HAM8 for the graphics (lo-res for 3d scenes and super-hires interlaced for static ones). Even 680x0 Mac emus could use Ham8 for display (although not very fast for hi-res).

Quote
Almost all of the special effects you have named would work better on a graphics card than on AGA or would require a 500+ MHz PowerPC to implement.  IMHO, if you need a 500+ MHz machine to implement those features, you're better off using something other than an Amiga. :(

I don't think you got my point. It's possible to make better amiga games and you don't have to include all that special effects but you can include some of them.

BTW, the fun is about breaking the limits, otherwise we wouldn't have seen desert dream on c64 or any amiga doom clone. Brian The Lion AGA coder would have never done his rotozoom using the blitter despiting all people thought it was impossible
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Offline Zener

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2009, 02:24:02 PM »
What is important for a game is that it is fun. All other considerations are optional, I prefer to have a game fun to play that an attempt of a game done in HAM8.

Let's start with simple games, better than no games at all.
 

Offline Cammy

Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2009, 02:37:53 PM »
Just in case you missed it, I posted about a games competition in my last post. I hope that some of you had the time to read it.

For those who don't know much about Backbone (nearly everyone), Rebel wrote a good review of the program which goes into detail about several of its features, and would be a good introduction to learning more about the program. His review can be read here - http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36338

If you would like to download some example games made in Backbone to try on your Amiga (or UAE) to give you an idea of its capabilities, get this pack - http://www.spin.net.au/~amiga/BackboneGames.lha and this quick demo of a Sonic type game - http://www.spin.net.au/~amiga/Sonic030.lha

If you like the sound of Backbone, why not give it a go and try making a simple, fun game in time for Christmas.
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Offline Skippy

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2009, 03:31:43 PM »
Quote from: Cammy;533190
http://www.spin.net.au/~amiga/BackboneGames.lha and this quick demo of a Sonic type game - http://www.spin.net.au/~amiga/Sonic030.lha

If you like the sound of Backbone, why not give it a go and try making a simple, fun game in time for Christmas.


\(^_^)/

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(( (O_O) ))

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Offline Skippy

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2009, 03:44:06 PM »
Snapshots.
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Offline Zener

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2009, 04:26:31 PM »
I like the game contest idea. Set the rules!
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2009, 05:02:06 PM »
Quote from: DIBBEERZ;533120
I wish the Amiga had a super active game making scene

:(

16 bit coders went back to the 8 bit scene banging hardware old amiga owners come back for amiga os like aros like havin a vw camper with a saburu engine its just cool i duno to fit real slimed down code into 64k is a challenge or the boot block of a amiga floppy we dont need all this c++ nonsence i say bring back kseka assembler with a ramdisk an cygnes ed thats all u need ! oh an dpaint an a tracker prog ! oh hang on thats the demo scene or real amiga game writers ![/QUOTE]

You'd probably love some of the stuff done by Inigo Quilez:
http://www.iquilezles.org/
and other demo coders, you can still do 4k demos on PC using OpenGL/DirectX.

Although I admit that is slightly off topic ;)
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Offline AJCopland

Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:11 PM »
I really like the sound of this idea, setting limits and themes is also a good way of getting people to think outside of those limitations. Wish I had time to join in!
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Offline rockersuke

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2009, 07:40:29 PM »
I guess most of you have noticed, but just in case, a free keyfile has been uploaded today to Aminet:

http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/Backbone_Key

Just copy it into your Backbone drawer and off you go!

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Offline doble07

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Re: Why we dont have GAME development contests
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2009, 08:04:11 PM »
Sound good! Post the rules!

Juan