Amiga HW price in a perspective

[zylesea]

The price of a Sam is easy:
In computing terms, i. e. MIPS/$€#?, the Sam is insanely expensive. But if you think that AOS4 (and not other Amiga flavour!) is your way and you cannot get hold of a Peg2 or want a brand new piece of hardware, then you have not much of a choice. These ppl probably shoudn't complain, they are free to chose from other alternatives.
But since the general user is not that much iinteresred n AmigaOS 4 it s fair to say, that the Sam is - generally spoken - a piece of  rather old fashioned overpriced silicon.
Everyone is free to decide, I decided myself against buying a SAM (there is no benefit), I have enough and faster ppc maschines.

[mpiva]

Fortunately, thanks to the choice of OS's out there, I can get both a good cup and good coffee (to continue your analogy).  OSX, Windows of just about any stripe (2000, XP, Vista, 7), AROS, Linuxes galore...

The important point here is that what constitutes a "good" cup of coffee is totally a matter of opinion. If you don't think Amiga coffee is worth the cost, don't buy it; simple as that.

I think it's pretty obvious by now that nobody's going to buy an Amiga/Sam because it's "pratical" but because they enjoy it.  The question is, how much is that enjoyment worth to you? Everyone's going to have a different answer and no amount of arguing or "discussion" is going to change a person's opinion in that regard nor is it going to change the current situation.

[Zac67]

It just boils down to: what do you need? what do you want?

If you definitely need or want something that runs AmigaOS 4, then you have little choice. Yes, it's pricey but most of us can probably afford it. Surely less pricey and more potent than souping up your beloved 1200.

However, in the perspective of competition the already mentioned problems come up and it doesn't make too much sense to choose a SAM from a rational POV. Sorry. If you think it's your hobby and it's worth it: fine! I'm glad for you that you can get what you want, honestly.

Obviously there's only a few people out there making that choice, so hardware prices are not bound to drop unfortunately. IMHO it'd make a lot of sense to port AmigaOS to an affordable, available hardware platform ASAP. Be it a PPC Mac (which doesn't hold much of a future but is available used in numbers) or a bog standard, el-cheapo x86 board (see Amithlon, AROS).

[persia]

And this is a different time.  The first time Amiga came out it was cutting edge hardware pushed beyond all sane limits.  That was then, today it's rather ordinary trailing edge technology that is handled gently by the OS to get speed.  It has some concessions to modernity but it basically retro in flavour.  

On the cutting edge the Amiga survived for a few years and then the Apple and Microsoft engineers came out and ended that.  There is no way to stay at the cutting edge without massive commitment of money and time.  On the retro end however this is not critical, you don't have to outpace or even keep pace with the market, in fact the market is irrelevant!

The closest thing I can think of is steam punk, you've got the past re-imagined into the present.  Not everyone's cup of tea, but if it's enough to pay the bills then it's ok.

[haywirepc]

I love amiga, and hated switching to windows when the cpu speeds got so far ahead of amiga but I do video editing and make music, so I really needed to switch.
 
Now I've come back to amiga for fun,running a dedicated amiga emulation pc running amikit. Its cheap, runs on an older pc 1.5ghz amd.
 
I have looked at amiga os4 and drooled a bit but I'm not spending so much money for a processor with speed from 5 or 8 years ago. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.
 
They will KILL amiga os if they don't port to x86 or something that has speeds at least approaching modern pc's. I don't see the reluctance to port to x86, except for piracy. While all copy protection can be beaten, Morph-os has done a good job of negating piracy of their os, amiga os can do the same...
 
For all these reasons, AROS is my choice for a nextgen amiga os. Its fast, free, and runs on most common hardware. My 3ghz aros pc can run rings around ANY morph or amiga os machine, and it costs a tenth of the price of their a morph os or amiga os machine.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'd love a morph or amiga os machine, I just refuse to pay so much for such slow aging hardware.
 
Steven

[Tahoe]

Agreed, port it to x86 and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. I already have a Core i7 rig'I'm not about to ditch for buying a sam, no matter how cute.

For OS4.1 I will not make the investment in hardware that runs OS4.1 only, or maybe some Linux stuff albeit a lot more slowly then the hardware I have now.

Port it to x86, I'll install it dual boot (maybe triple) and I'll actually use it, instead a little (expensive) machine sitting in a corner never being used.

[takemehomegrandma]

@ amyren

Oh no, not this argument again. Look, trying to make any kind of conclusions regarding the value of todays products based on ancient computer history is completely, totally, utterly *useless*!

Despite its price, the Sam offers a performance level comparable to common PDA's, and you can easily get *two* complete Mac Mini + MorphOS (registered!) systems for the price of one Sam+OS4 system. And each one of the Minis will be so much more useful!

[brianb]

I think your logic is flawed...   There are a number of factors that can contribute the cost of technology hardware...  "Bleeding edge", niche market, and popularity.  

I once purchased a 9600 baud modem for $299.  Bleeding edge at the time, and I paid dearly for it.   Some people would have argued at the time it was a silly purchase and 2400 baud is fine.  

Current (kinda sorta?!) Amiga hardware you are paying for niche low volume hardware.   So your $/performance is going to be perplexing to most.   (unless you are a die-hard amiga person, then it's acceptable)

Most people do not follow any of those trends, except perhaps popularity.  They just want something cheap with impressive numbers.  (and they may not even know what the numbers mean - ghz, megabytes, etc.)

So yeah anyone theoretically could afford one, but what if they don't want it?

[spihunter]

Yes, an Amiga 500 was $600 in 1987 but it was cutting edge technology for the time.
Compare the price of a Sam -vs- what $600 will get you in an x86 PC today?

You think the SAM is to expensive?
Here are some facts to consider:
Average salery in US (source http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html)

1986: 17,321; 1987: 18,426; 1988: 19,334; -----> 2006: 38,651; 2007: 40,405; 2008: 41,334
Numbers in US$
The statistics shows that the wages have more than doubled since the Amiga was in the position of selling lots of machines.

Now the prices for Amiga Hardware:
(1985) Amiga 1000: US$ 1,300
(1987) Amiga 2000: US$ 1,500
(1987) Amiga 500: £ 359.90 (about USD $600, todays rate)
(1990) Amiga 3000: US$ 4,100 (monitor incl.)
(1991) CBM CDTV: US$ 1000
(1992) Amiga 600: US$ 500
(1992) Amiga 4000: US$ 3,699

2009: Sam Flex complete Vento Bundle (acube): 675.60 EUR (about US$ 1000, today rate, incl VAT)

So given that the wages have doubled, you can compare the Sam with any of the mentioned old Amiga models, and you find that the Vento bundle is the cheapest of them all.

For the argument sake you could also add the fact that the average age of the target group have probably rised quite a bit. So there are more people in todays target group who actually have a decent job now than there was in 1987. Then many users got the Amiga founded by their own savings and some might get it founded by their parents.

Ok, I know that when the first Amigas was out, it was state of the art technology. But I still think that most users baught it for their own pleasure for the hobbist needs, rather than for buisness. And when we look back at the difficult years behind us, we all know that we cant expect to Amiga to be in front of the technology just over night.

So my point is this, Yes the SAM is expensive compared performance-vice to the PC's. But compared to the old days it is not, it just those damn PC's are sold in millions and because of that is dirt cheap.
I think if someone really wants an Amiga, they can afford to buy it. Its just a matter or priority.

[brianb]

Yes, an Amiga 500 was $600 in 1987 but it was cutting edge technology for the time.
Compare the price of a Sam -vs- what $600 will get you in an x86 PC today?

For giggles I looked to see what $600 could get you...

HP - Pavilion Desktop with AMD Athlon™ II X4 Quad-Core Processor
AMD Athlon™ II X4 620 quad-core processor; 6GB DDR2 SDRAM; DL DVD±RW/CD-RW drive; LightScribe technology; 640GB hard drive; Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

$579!

I'll stick with my Mac's, but I thought this interesting...  Man PC prices have fallen out...

[amigadave]

..... My 3ghz aros pc can run rings around ANY morph or amiga os machine, and it costs a tenth of the price of their a morph os or amiga os machine.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'd love a morph or amiga os machine, I just refuse to pay so much for such slow aging hardware.
 
Steven

I didn't realize that you could get 3GHz AROS PC's for about $50, as the cost of a registered MorphOS MacMini is only about $500, but then your cost estimate was reversed wasn't it.  Your 3GHz AROS PC really cost about ten times what the lowest priced MorphOS machine costs, as a few Efika's have been recently advertised at $225 to $250, including the registered license for MorphOS.

[haywirepc]

Yes you can get a 3ghz pc on ebay and other surplus sites if you know where to look... for 50$.
 
Go look, I see dell 2ghz machines for 50$ all the time, 3ghz, okay some go for 100$-200$ plus shipping now, but I did just get a 3ghz pc, 512megs of ram, 80 gig hard drive, built in sound, video and network for 50$ plus shipping, I can show you the invoice if you like, I was the only bidder, maybe it was a lucky bid but I see these deals all the time.
 
Do the math... 3ghz aros pc - 50$ plus shipping
Morph os machine - 500$ plus shipping
Amiga os machine - 800$ plus shipping
 
I won't even get into a debate on an efika board, Come on a 400mhz processor? I have thrown faster computers in the trash, why would I buy that? Oh, and then add the cost of os4.1 at 155$ plus a case and power supply, keyboard mouse, okay now we are over 500$ for a 400mhz novelty computer? No way man.
 
os4.x is doomed to failure unless they port it to faster hardware. Morph just got a lifeline in the form of mac ports, I hope morph ports to x86 next, I will be the first to buy either of them if they port to x86 or something at least approaching modern hardware.
 
I don't want to run 5 or 8 year old hardware just for an os. I want an os that takes advantage of modern speeds and hardware advancements.
 
You can sit with blinders on your eyes if you like, but mine are open.
Oh and BTW AROS is free... You can like me and many however, choose to support development in the form of bounties.
AND its open source...
 
Steven

[amigadave]

Must have touched a nerve to get such a heated response.  

I don't have blinders on, and have not bought a SAM to run AmigaOS4.1 for just the reasons that you have written, but I am also not interested in any $50 PC's and doubt very much that you find complete 3GHz PC's at that price "all the time".  

I have a couple dozen computers here (mostly Amigas) and one of them is a 3.0GHz Quad Core PC that I have had for a while and I would gladly trade it for a decent spec'd fairly recent (read Intel) desktop Mac, but I am very happy to use my 1.5GHz G4 MacMini with registered MorphOS2.4 running on it, and plan to use it more and more for everyday stuff and some AmigaOS/MorphOS programming.

 I don't disagree with your assertion that the pricing of ANY Amiga hardware is high and not comparable to hardware for other platforms.  I also do not agree with the OP's attempt at logic, but for the Amiga fanatics, price is not an obstacle.  Most of them are just happy to have any hardware to run their OS of choice on.

Edit: FYI, AmigaOS4.x does not run on the Efika, only MorphOS2.x, and as I stated in my post, there have been a couple Efika's with the full registered MorphOS2.4 license included offered for sale recently for between $225 to $250.

2nd Edit: I also forgot to say that if MorphOS, or AmigaOS ever get ported to modern hardware, I will be second in line, right behind you to buy it.  AROS is a great idea, but it has not impressed me yet.

[haywirepc]

No nerves, just expanding my point, which we agree on I think.
 
I'd love a mac mini running morph-os just for the record, and I may buy a mac mini just to try morph on before deciding on plunking down the 250$ for a registered version. I've never had a mac but morph os is enough to entice me to buy one.
 
I got to try a friends pegasos machine and it was the best thing I've seen so far from next gen amiga type stuff, I just can't afford that or an aos machine right now. Because of this, I have tried and really fell in love with aros. It makes that 50$ pc a very exciting thing.
 
BTW yes the machine was 50$, but I did put in an aros supported soundcard and a nvidia video card with gpu, so I guess in total, I spent about 120$ on it.
 
You touched on simply enjoying your morph-os machine. That I think is the key. Amigas made computing an enjoyable experience. I am having lots of fun with a dedicated pc running amikit (straight boot to os 3.9 no windows but windows hosted) and My aros pc.
 
Perhaps you can't really put a price on that excitement and enjoyment, but all of us have budgets, I do what I can on mine.
 
Steven

[zylesea]

Go look, I see dell 2ghz machines for 50$ all the time, 3ghz, okay some go for 100$-200$ plus shipping now, but I did just get a 3ghz pc, 512megs of ram, 80 gig hard drive, built in sound, video and network for 50$ plus shipping, I can show you the invoice if you like, I was the only bidder, maybe it was a lucky bid but I see these deals all the time.
 
Do the math... 3ghz aros pc - 50$ plus shipping
Morph os machine - 500$ plus shipping
Amiga os machine - 800$ plus shipping

While the cost of a AROS capable maschine is indeed very low, your cited cost for a MorphOS maschine is a bit exaggerated. You can run it on any Mac mini G4. Not too sure how much a good deal precisely is, but I heard of many ppl getting a Mac mini quite below 200 US$. For getting a taste of MorphOS you don't need to register, so for less than 200 US$ you will get a system to play around with. If you like it you surely have to add the 150 EUR for the registration (which i US$ is unfortunately a lot especially since the US$ seems to lower its worth even more...).
But if you don't like it dump it off to ebay again,  the whole experiment will have costed you some eby fee and teh risk to get a lower sale price than you initially paid for. But prbably your expenses will not exceed 50US$ for testing it.
Anyway trying AROS is for free (give you have a pc around).

I won't even get into a debate on an efika board, Come on a 400mhz processor? I have thrown faster computers in the trash, why would I buy that?

The Efika is definitely not a power house, but a nice little toy which runs surprisingly good. It is best suited for some geeky rojects, furthermore I don't know how much the kWh is charged from your electricity provider, but @ ~0.20 EUR/kWh it saves quite some money to power the Efika on instead of a more powerful maschine (the Efika consumes less energy than my Eee and is fun to use - a thing which is not too true for my Eee). So the Efika is definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but it is not always bunt stupid to use.

[dougal]

Lets put our cards on the table here and just say it as it is..... The Sam motherboard IS extremely overpriced and extremely under powered .

Fine , everyone is free to spend their money on what they like , but there is absolutely no way to justify the price of the Sam motherboard and I for one would never buy it .

Lets be honest here , its not like its C= Amiga hardware or anything , its just a stupidly overpriced and outdated motherboard which the developers of Amiga OS 4 decided to work with . The motherboard has no value whatsoever .