A common attitude with Windows users here

[PPCRulez]

@ Waccoon

Actually the Minolta Camera I have doesn't have any special drivers. You don't have to (nor can) install any drivers. When attached it uses Microsofts USB Mass Storage Device driver. I will try some of your tips though and see if it works.

I've gotten used to using it under Linux now, since Win2k can be such a pain in the ass sometimes.

[fx]

I had a somewhat similiar problem with a USB device, but under XP. I plugged it in, Windows found it but nothing happened, I though that I might have to reboot the computer for it to come up under Explorer but no, nothing happened. I fooled around for a while and suddenly it just appeared, and since that it has worked fine.

Strange and annoying. Oh, and it too worked perfectly under Linux. It's not strange that people get annoyed with windows, it's totally unlogical, I have used Windows far more than I have used Linux but I still think in Linux it is easier to understand what's going on, but on the other hand, linux structure of files is a mess

/bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin

And about the "having to reinstall the OS" problems, this has never happened to me in any OS except Windows, I usually reinstall Linux every now and then because it's grows huge with programs I'm installing and testing, but Windows has actually crashed on me once and showed a message telling me I had to reinstall windows.

[Hammer]

Microsoft changed their driver wizard in Win98 a while ago, and now a lot of Win98 drivers don't work anymore,

The reason for that is simple i.e. Windows 9X's VXD drivers doesn’t work with Windows NT5.x style driver modelling.

Lesson learned: always use FAT for your boot partition and NTFS for other partitions, 'cause if the boot partition dies, you might have to transfer the HD to another machine to read your files on C:.

One could have another cut-down installation of WinXP/Win2K to rescue the main boot drive.

No one has forced you to upgrade to Win2K/XP IF Windows 98 does the work for you.

[the_leander]

I have a better solution.

FDisk windows and install Zeta :-D (BeOS R6 - released yesterday).

Seriously though. I do find that a lot of the problems I've encountered is due to hardware not sticking to the standards, usb stuff especially seems to be bad for this. And whoever came up with USB ADSL modems should be shot, his or her body drawn and quartered, then force fed to the person who ok'd the idea. I have had hellish problems with some systems when using ADSL modems. I can fix just about anything given a little time, some space and a sound proof room (The air goes blue when dealing with windows and usb stuff). But these things I generally find are the worst to fix.

Win2k for me is fine, I use it as a games system and very rarely have problems with it. That said, I have had no end of issues with WinXP and I deliberately downgrade any system I come accross with this attrocity installed on it when I'm allowed, simply because there are so many niggles with it (Not big issues, but very annoying problems that I can never fully track down) that simply don't happen with win2k, well, not nearly with the same regularity at any rate.

My main OS is BeOS R5 with Bone Installed, I use it because beyond games, it does everything I need, when I mess things up, its easily fixable, libs are in a libs folder, commands are in /bin drivers are in their correct places etc etc, its basically easier to go through and find/correct issues simply because the layout of the OS is designed to be more human friendly, much like AmigaOS in that regard. Windows were on to a winner with Win2k, and as much as the Amigan in me hates to say this, its a damned fine OS, the best they ever built imo, XP however, feels like someone put a throttle on that good work whenever I've encountered it.

[Tomas]

And whoever came up with USB ADSL modems should be shot, his or her body drawn and quartered, then force fed to the person who ok'd the idea.

I totally agree there! The ethernet standard is WAY better! USB is slower, more unstable and restrict you usually to just on or 2 OS, which is usually Windows and some few times Mac..  :-(

I agree with the_leander btw... BeOS was the best OS on x86! It is WAY better than both windows and linux on the desktop side... stable as hell, easy to use, no reboots needed, good with multimedia and so on... Too bad m$ killed beinc.. it could have had a very promising future  :cry:

[ronybeck]

I can honestly say that its "always the user"!

Of coarse Developers and Software/System Designers never make mistakes  ~  BS!

Consider this problem though.  Our Win2k print server went kaput when the PSU died.  As a result  MS Word took 10-15 minutes to open a document because it kept trying to poll the printer server.  User intervension helped by unmapping all network printers.  But it is hardly caused by "User Error".  Given the number of problems like this that don't have an obvious fix and require at least some level of system knowledge to fix I think users of Winblows have a good reason to complain.

The OS not user friendly from top to bottom and when some has a deadline for a document and they are faced with this they have good reason to be angry.

They paid good money for a product.  I am not sure that the car analogy works for new cars though.  Would you keep buying new cats then selling them untill you found one that didn't brake down on you frequently?

[ronybeck]

I tried to use BeOS.  But there wasn't enough software for desktop stuff like GOOD movie players or word processors.  I use linux now with Ximian and it leaves BeOS for dead in the desktop areana.

[jeffimix]

Bah, WindowsXp runs fine. Got it running on 128Megs of RAM here cause I don't let crap run in the background (1.4GHz P4) , except for game demos I love to play with, it's a pretty static set-up (DL milestone firebird releases though). I just wish I could un-install all those windows extras. 90% of the time I'm using Photoshop, Firebird, X-Chat, Star Office, AIM occasionally (use to use Trillian for it all).  Got some games, old as Sim City 2000, not much all that new really though.  VersaCad, REBOL, Bryce, Truespace et cetera.

Windows is stable, never had the system crash on me (firebird has crashed several times, and various word/office programs but they never bring the system down) and it runs reasonably quickly except when two users log in (almost never, since it's one terminal) . I use XP-AntiSpy, Ad-Aware 6, Regclean et cetera and the system is pretty clean (not much launched at start). Sits behind a giant router/firewall and generally lacks major bugs/virii needs to have its oil changed every now and then, but never had to re-install Xp, never had bad drivers either (usually try manufacturer's first). Windows ME was a nightmare as my DVD drivers conflicted with my DSL software irreparably.  

No major qualms, I just like the concept behind the AmigaOS a lot more.  Light, efficient, fast, Very simple, frankly things are labelled more plainly
(*nixes are horrible at this) centralized distribution
(Windows also has that advantage over Linux, there are very few versions of Windows, which are largely compatible, Linux's many GUIs and shells and repeat tools are not standardized, outside the realm of POSIX, which is great, if you're a programmer, which I'm not) Amiga has a very customizable GUI, Windows is customizable with a lot of 3rd party hacks (much like Amiga frankly) But they tend to slow down my PC, with it's Pentium 4 and it's 128megs of RAM, like molasses, so I don't use 'em. Seems most peopel with a fast(ish) amiga use MUI, and some other stuff to make  their desktop look nice.

ED: PS: I've never used Win2K really, maybe I'm missing out on something here... the school uses it, but I see no major differences upfront from WinXp Pro with no bundled software... can't lock taskbar
 :-x

[Glaucus]

Without bothering to read the entire thread (I'm sure I can predict how this one will turn out ;-) ) I'd just like to say that overall, I kinda like XP. I've heard so many horror stories about it here on the forums, but I just don't get it. I've installed XP on various machines, including a 200Mhz K6 with under 100megs of ram and had no problems (aside from the fact that it was a bit slugish).

Having said that, there's still some thing about it that drive me nuts. The drive lettering for example! Isn't it about time we got rid of that ancient system and switch to volume labels to reference drives? Or a REAL command line shell, similar to csh or AmigaShell? DOS just doesn't cut it!

  - Mike

[melott]

(chuckle chuckle).....
I think this has turned into a general gripe
session about windows and lost track of
Micky's origonal statement.
Everyone has their gripe with Windows.
What you need to do is go back to the source.
TV ads.. All the computer manufactures advertise
their product to the general public as the
greatest thing since sliced bread, and
subconsiously we beleave the ads. Now we are
sourly disappointed when we find that they lied.
Most all of us owned an A500 or C64 or whatever
and should know better, but we don't.
Now what about all the unsuspecting public that
all these TV ads are directed at, they know
nothing.
They're not going to learn anything, all they'll
get is disappointment. People need to really
pay attention to the ads, you know like  24/7
tech support. Why do they need that if the
software worked as advertised.
I respect and envy Mikey's knowledge.....
If I could just figure out where to even start
on the Damned thing I would probably be OK.

 

[Waccoon]

PPCRulez:  You don't have to (nor can) install any drivers.

Oh, those are bad.  Lots of the card readers we have at work don't have drivers, or even directions!  Just plug it in and it works!  Yeah, right.  I suppose that's why 5 out of the 6 Unity Digital USB readers we sold were returned to us.  I plugged mine into a Win98 box, and it kept asking for a driver.

For that kind of device, though, you'll have to clean out the device manager, and then plug it in AFTER the computer starts.  Also, if you get it working, type "diskmgmt.msc" in the Start Menu/Run dialog, make sure a card is in the camera, right-click on the mass storage device, and click Change Drive Letter and Path.  Without a dedicated, assigned drive letter, the device may appear and disappear for no reason.  Make sure there's a card in the camera when you do this, or Disk Management will throw a tantrum (removable disks tend to do that).

fx: linux structure of files is a mess

I agree.  I think it's a bit hypocritical of UN*X people to criticize Microsoft for dumping everything in the System folder.  They do the same thing with the "bin" folder.  Also, there's so much stuff that just goes in the "etc" folder.  If you're suddenly stuck having to edit your congig files by hand (and that will happen), digging through the "etc" can be a real pain, especially from a vanilla console that doesn't use color (unless you know how to turn it on).  Everything is case sensitive, too.  It took me a while to figure out why "xconfigurator" didn't work, but "XConfigurator" did.  God, I hate that.

I know standard I/O and pipes are useful for programming, but this is the 21st century.  Why are we still bumming around with Telnet-compatible B&W shells?  I miss the old text user-interfaces (TUIs) used in MS-DOS.  Navigating interfaces without a mouse ROCKS.

And about the "having to reinstall the OS" problems, this has never happened to me in any OS except Windows, I usually reinstall Linux every now and then because it's grows huge with programs I'm installing and testing, but Windows has actually crashed on me once and showed a message telling me I had to reinstall windows.

Ah, the dreaded registry corruption.  I've only seen that happen under Win95, though.  Win2K only seems to blow up when I put on new drivers or something goes wrong with WindowsUpdate.

I haven't re-installed my A1200's HD since I ran into a filesystem mishap in 1995.   ;-)

Hammer:  The reason for that is simple i.e. Windows 9X's VXD drivers doesn’t work with Windows NT5.x style driver modelling.

Simple reason, but inexcusable.  Just because Microsoft tidied up the driver installation GUI doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use Win98 drivers in Win98.

One could have another cut-down installation of WinXP/Win2K to rescue the main boot drive.

What a waste of 1 gig!   :-)

No one has forced you to upgrade to Win2K/XP IF Windows 98 does the work for you.

Wait, do you think I'm complaining that Win98 drivers don't work in Win2K?  Of course they won't.  I mean Win98 drivers won't work in Win98 because IE6 includes a new driver installation system that isn't fully compatible with older drivers (and can't be removed once installed).

I could care less since Win2K is far supirior, but my customers keep returning merchandise because it doesn't work on their computers.  When I try it on a Win98 box I have lying around, I find out those products won't work on my machine, either, if I have IE6 installed.  Companies shouldn't be forced to update their drivers regularly because Microsoft wants to screw around.

the_leander:  I do find that a lot of the problems I've encountered is due to hardware not sticking to the standards, usb stuff especially seems to be bad for this.

I've found it's because of drivers, politics, and idiotic marketing decisions, not the hardware.  USB is really good, IMO, it's the Windows USB driver model, and many manufacturers' rediculous hacks, that really suck.

ronybeck:  As a result MS Word took 10-15 minutes to open a document because it kept trying to poll the printer server.

Isn't it amazing how long it takes Windows to realize that something isn't actually there?  Netscape running on a Mac does the same thing.  The Internet connection is down, but it will keep trying to load a webpage for 15 minutes, all the while the "Stop" button is grayed out!  Doing graphic design work on the PowerMac was a horrible experience.  Everything locked up the system for minutes at a time, before it realized that the device didn't exist!

No major qualms, I just like the concept behind the AmigaOS a lot more.

Most people have no major qualms with Windows, until something goes wrong.  Windows is so inconsistent, that one person may have a nightmare on his hand, while other people just sit around in bewilderment, giving helpful advice, like, "I've NEVER had a problem with MY computer!"

Good for you!

I've never used Win2K really, maybe I'm missing out on something here...

A faster, lighter XP without the eye candy, no stupid product activation, and lesser game compatibility.  Everything today runs fine under Win2K, so I have no reason to upgrade to XP.  Also, I change my hardware a lot, so XP's anti-piracy nagging would get on my nerves.

[Waccoon]

melot:  All the computer manufactures advertise their product to the general public as the
greatest thing since sliced bread, and
subconsiously we beleave the ads.

Don't all companies do that?  A company is nothing without its reputation.

These days, it's not called reputation.  It's called "brand awareness".

People need to really
pay attention to the ads, you know like 24/7
tech support. Why do they need that if the
software worked as advertised.

So, if they offered 8/5 tech support, you'd be more interested in their product?   :-)

What really needs to happen is people need to get away from the hype and think about what they really need.  I use Photoshop all day, so I need a top-flight system.  If all I did was browse the web, a celeron would do me fine.  My dad's friend, on the other hand, spent $4,000 on a 3+ Ghz P4 with dual 250 Gig hard drives!  He doesn't do any business work on his system, so what does he need all that power and storage for?!  If he wanted it for a game machine, he could get a better long-term deal by upgrading his machine later, rather than getting an end-all upgrade now for that much cash.  I don't get it.

Another hype item:  digital cameras.  I can't tell you how many people walk into my [ex]-store wanting to buy a digital camera, but they have no clue how much time and money they'll have to invest.  GO DIGITAL is the war cry in the photo industry, because it's the way of the future!  Apparently, the way of the future involves not being able to print pictures off a memory card, because a Kodak DLS printer can't read JPEG files with certain kinds of meta data.  I find it very amusing that digital photos taken with a Kodak camera may not come up on a Kodak DLS minilab, and in some cases, may actually crash the workstaion.  I really hated that machine, and I'm glad I'm not working at that store, anymore.

I'd like to say that's a Kodak issue, but apparently, all manufacturers are having these kinds of issues.  Instead of making good, solid standards, they just abstract everything with XML, DPOF, KIAS... and then require you to install all the "client" programs to work with thier crappy little applets.  Kodak is run by script kiddies, and Fuji, Agfa, Polaroid, Noritsu, and all the others, aren't much better.

I mean, there isn't even a standard way of numbering digital photos as you take them.  The customer orders frame #142, and they get DCM00142.JPG, which is not the same thing.  Many camera manufacturers haven't even agreed whether movie files should be counted as frame numbers or skipped entirely, making it near impossible to order prints from a memory card if there's movies on it.

The point:  This is the information age, but nobody is concerned about the QUALITY of that information.  It's just a war over volume, like it has been in the computer industry for 20 years.

I respect and envy Mikey's knowledge.....
If I could just figure out where to even start
on the Damned thing I would probably be OK.

Another think I wish more developers realized, is that while we all have the ability to learn about our computers, there are many things people shouldn't have to learn.  What's the point of spending $300 for an operating system, just so you have to spend weeks learning how to use it?  Why do people get all pissy at newbies because they don't know, "oh, of course you're having trouble, because you didn't disable *THAT* problematic feature!"

Time is money.  If people feel like wasting hours of their life to figure out one little gadget, they should stick to freeware.  Commercial developers have an obligation to make software that meets the customer's expectations.  If your users can't use your software, that's your own damn fault, not the users.

[A4000Bear]

Hmmm....Over the 10 or so years I have been using Windows, I have had nothing but constant problems.

At one stage it was so bad, (win98) I was spending an hour fixing the PC each time I needed to use it!

As of two weeks ago I have fixed all Windows problems - permanently. I removed my XP18000 M/B and put an AmigaOne in place of it. Its running Linux quite nicely now.

Some of the previous Windows problems I have had include:

Win95: Icons on desktop are suddenly rearranged in alphabetical order. I could rearrange them - but only until the next time I reboot. The only cure I found was a complete reinstall of Windows. This would last for a few months and then it would happen again. This happened on a number of different computeres.

Win98: Machine would suddenly freeze. It was more likely to do it if I was actually doing nothing with it. I would come back to the PC after an hour or so and 50% of the time the mouse pointer had frozen. Of course, I would be chastised for not shutting down my computer properly when I rebooted. I was never able to locate the source of the problem, as both Linux and WinXP would not exhibit this behaviour on the same hardware.

WinXP: Actually quite stable, but there is a really annoying habit where it boots up, then I have to wait a few minutes before I could launch an application. During this period, the hard drive is not being accessed. I was never able to find out why this was happening. Linux did not exhibit this behaviour.

In all the above cases, these problems were on newly installed computers with only windows installed. No other software to cause conflicts.

Maybe Microsoft is employing Mr Murphy within their organisation.

One amusing incident I remember was when I was with a friend who insisted I was "doing something wrong" as he never, ever, had Windows problems. He went to show me something on his PC, and as he moved his mouse to get rid of his screensaver, it promptly crashed! I had a grin a mile wide when I saw it!

[Wolfe]

"It's always the user's fault"?

I think the programers are at fault.  Of coure "Ease of Use & SetUp" are a non starter.  If you have to jump through hoops to set up the system then, it was poorly programed and designed.  Oh crap - I just discribed Winblows!

Problem solved - get a new OS!

[ksk]

I've used hundred of hours to nurse my (and my friends) Windows machines and it's all wasted time.
Even if some fix works for some time, soon something happens that makes things go wrong again. (like security updates)

On a simple OS like AmigaOS, one can rely that it runs flawlessly for years without maintenance.

[Rodney]

The thing is, you just cant group all Windows owners into that category. Also, most windows users are novices and dont know any and dont what to know anything about computing... They just want it to work. And it should. You should NOT have to endlessly tweek, remove components, edit config scripts, install programs to make windows faster, to get it working at a resonable rate.

If your comparing windows to Amiga. DONT! Windows has more features in its little finger than AmigaOS4 shall. No im not flamming. Im saying that, its a complicated peice of software, and it may not have been written or designed some people want.


also, i've been a windows users. I've tweeked it, edited stuf and its running a lot faster. Its always been stable. But the fact is, i was able to do it because i've been using computers for years. My mother is still afraid of the mouse. Computers should work. You should havnt have to configure a home computer, because thats exactly what its supposed to be... a HOME computer. Made for the HOME!!

Please be more specific in your postings. Not ALL windows users are experts and not all can tweek their system.