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Author Topic: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!  (Read 36574 times)

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Offline Jakodemus

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2009, 08:35:07 AM »
It isn't Jens fault that the US dollar is at so low these days. 100 euros is great price for a new scandoubler.
 

Offline jj

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2009, 08:37:33 AM »
OMG ffs. Its too expensive. booo fooking hoo.
 
Simple Don't buy it. I doubt anyone actually cares that some of you wanted to buy loads of them.
 
I want an Audi R8, but I can't afford £76k  ($150K) , if they sold them for £100 they would sell more. I want one for £100 its not fair booo hoo.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2009, 08:46:04 AM »
Quote from: JJ;521244
OMG ffs. Its too expensive. booo fooking hoo.
 
Simple Don't buy it. I doubt anyone actually cares that some of you wanted to buy loads of them.
 
I want an Audi R8, but I can't afford £76k  ($150K) , if they sold them for £100 they would sell more. I want one for £100 its not fair booo hoo.


+1

Offline jj

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2009, 08:53:04 AM »
You want an Audi R8 ?
 
Lets both chip in and share one :)
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Offline Piru

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2009, 09:49:05 AM »
Quote from: Schoenfeld;521004
While the real Paula can only join two 8-bit channels to be one 14-bit channel, we could give it a true 16-bit channel.
Interesting idea. I think this could be achieved without any need for additional software support.

You need some simple logic to detect a condition where channels from single side have the same sampling frequency (rate) and volume set to either 64 and 1 or 1 and 64. See here for details: http://aminet.net/package/mus/misc/Pro14bitbet

When the condition is met you can then take the two different 8-bit components and produce a true 16-bit data out of it.

This way it would work with manual tricks such as descibed in the Pro14bitbet and with the 14-bit noteplayers available for various player apps (such as http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/Deli14BitGenie). As a bonus you'd get 16-bit paula AHI for free (paula.audio supports the 14-bit mode).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 09:58:13 AM by Piru »
 

Offline Arkhan

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2009, 09:50:00 AM »
Im a huge Amiga n00blit.

That being said, even I am fully aware that if you want new shinies to stick in your Amiga, you have to fork out some money.

If you can afford to keep an old machine fairly current, you should be able to afford another doodad to stick in it.

If not, whaaaaaawahaaaaaa.   You've been doing fine without it yeah?


Its more like a "keeping up with the steins" than a "this is too expensive"

Not everyone can immediately afford new stuff.  Some have to wait. Woopeedoo.  (I can't even afford an Amiga 500 atm. lol)
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Offline bloodline

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2009, 10:52:33 AM »
Quote from: Piru;521249
Interesting idea. I think this could be achieved without any need for additional software support.

You need some simple logic to detect a condition where channels from single side have the same sampling frequency (rate) and volume set to either 64 and 1 or 1 and 64. See here for details: http://aminet.net/package/mus/misc/Pro14bitbet

When the condition is met you can then take the two different 8-bit components and produce a true 16-bit data out of it.

This way it would work with manual tricks such as descibed in the Pro14bitbet and with the 14-bit noteplayers available for various player apps (such as http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/Deli14BitGenie). As a bonus you'd get 16-bit paula AHI for free (paula.audio supports the 14-bit mode).


now this idea rocks!

Hopefully Jens is noting it down for any future work ;)

Offline Schoenfeld

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that price discussion...
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2009, 11:44:12 AM »
may look valid, but let me get to each and every aspect.

Amber cards and NOS flickerfixers: They are all limited to Hires. Indivision makes S-Hires, which requires twice the data rate.

Older flickerfixers only double the vertical frequency. This results in 50Hz for PAL screens, which can't be displayed on most modern monitors. Indivision will even output 62.5Hz on PAL screens, making today's cheap monitors and overstock items available to the Amiga. The overall system cost will be lower, as you can choose a cheaper monitor. Needless to say that a truly async frame buffer makes things more complicated on the hardware.

Older flickerfixers always needed adjustment. Doing a few turns on a potentiometer doesn't hurt, but having to do it over and over again when room/computer temperature changes is just not state-of-the art. Indivision ECS does not require any adjustments. It works right out of the box, pain-free, guaranteed.

We have been working on Indivision ECS since february of this year. Knowledge from Indivision AGA and from Clone-A has gone into this product as well. Several prototypes had to be built, and only the manpower (Oliver's and mine) already exceeded 50k EUR development cost. Translate that to 500 units sold after 2 years (which is my expectation), you're already at 100,- EUR per unit. Why can I still sell it at 99,- EUR each? The answer is that I'm working for much less than an engineer normally makes. I'm paying Oliver with all the fuzz that German law requires: Retirement plan, health care, insurance, paid holidays.

Over-engineerd? Nope, I have to reject that. You can buy smaller FPGAs (in terms of logic), but that would not save you any money. Indivision ECS is pretty optimal with an Altera EP1C3 and a Xilinx 72-Macrocell CPLD (weird marriage, eh?). More components are on the board for clock generation, memory and 3.3V conversion, where none could be replaced for a cheaper one.

The trick is to justify making the thing at all: We need these powerful components, as less power would not save money. There is no cheaper way of making up-to-date-hardware. I might even go as far as to say that there's no cheaper way of making the hardware at all, as older components are more expensive.

So why not make the best of it? I bet wining would be even louder if we stopped development in the middle of the road and started selling, like many far-east R&D teams do. This is just not our style. Yes, it's a German thing to make it the "best possible solution", whereas there might be markets where people would accept pixel flickering and fewer features, maybe even two re-starts a day.

Since technology dictates that we're using these powerful components anyway, we should make the best out of it. I must admit that I even like the thought of a Mercedes over a Kia. And Mercedes quality may not always reach Toyota quantities. Given the high development cost, you all will hopefully understand that a 99,- EUR price tag is in the Volkswagen Golf range (is it still the rabbit in the US?), nowhere near expensive sports cars.

That said, it would indeed make things cheaper if I produced 1000 instead of 500 units. If someone wants to place such an order with me, I'm happy to sell exclusively to that person, provided that the final price is really under 99,- EUR over the next two years. Who is putting out that kind of money?

Jens
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2009, 01:08:04 PM »
Quote from: JJ;521247
You want an Audi R8 ?
 
Lets both chip in and share one :)


Hmmmm... Ok, but only if it has an iPhone connector :p ;)



@Jens ignore the stultifyingly illinformed armchair experts! While the indivision is not a product that I currently require, I think it is well priced and I look forward to future products based on the CloneA project (yes, I am waiting for the Big One :) )

Offline Beast96GT

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Re: that price discussion...
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2009, 01:48:25 PM »
In AmigaLand, where options are so few and far between, I would rather have more than fewer.  As such, I'll take the Mercedes for a few dollars more.
 

Offline Louis Dias

IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2009, 01:49:24 PM »
Jens seems like quite the engineer.  Personally I think he and the Natami team should combine resources and get the "people's Amiga" out the door.

I would love to see the NATAMI as a product that could be booted as an Amiga classic, Amiga 5000, ST, Atari Jaguar, NeoGeo, Mac or arcade board by flicking some dip switches and plugging in the right SD card or something like that...
 

Offline Piru

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2009, 01:56:57 PM »
@lou_dias

The difference between what Jens does and what NatAmi people are trying to do is common sense.
 

Offline amiga1260

Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2009, 02:28:09 PM »
100 Euro is very much, but  I'm goiing to buy two for my A600, but I wait when I have a job and see if someone make a hack to use both Indivision ECS and floppy drive.

I think that this piece of hardware is one of the best expansion you could buy for an ECS Amiga.

I like to have two different screens to show off some PC owners.
 

Offline Louis Dias

IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2009, 04:48:33 PM »
Common sense?

...tell me that 1 year ago if someone proposed a dual screen Amiga display that they wouldn't be laughed at and told that it was impossible...

...let's look at how Dennis was laughed at when he first proposed the Minimig...

...common sense says that with good engineering, anything is possible if you ask me...
 

Offline tone007

Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2009, 05:12:16 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;521318
...tell me that 1 year ago if someone proposed a dual screen Amiga display that they wouldn't be laughed at and told that it was impossible...


I don't think anyone would have called dual screen Amiga display impossible.  There have been two-headed Amiga setups forever (look at multi-monitor RTG setups and Video Toaster stuff.) Sure, it's a bit different, but the idea isn't foreign.
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Offline polardark

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Re: IndivisionECS will have dual video output!
« Reply #89 from previous page: August 28, 2009, 06:10:35 PM »
I'm thinking of getting two for my a600 as well. The only difficulty is figuring out how to mount the connectors in a sane way with that little box. Another thing i need to do is figure out how to modify the a600 to think that DF1: is actually DF0:.

Since the Indivision ECS emulates the DENISE chip. Does that mean that there's enough potential for AGA emulation? The chip ram bus is going to be too slow for it but on the other hand, there's that lightning fast onboard ram. It wouldn't be much use on an a600 but on an expanded a3000 it could get interesting.