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AuthorTopic: When is an FPU chip really needed????  (Read 2973 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2017, 12:18:45 AM »
Vampire is nice for watching demos from YouTube after having them tediously converted and downscaled to suitable mpeg1 using ffmpeg or whatever (preferably on much faster system).
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline UberFreak

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2017, 01:25:44 AM »
Quote from: kolla;827358
Vampire is nice for watching demos from YouTube after having them tediously converted and downscaled to suitable mpeg1 using ffmpeg or whatever (preferably on much faster system).

Low blow, but you win :)
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2017, 07:00:56 AM »
Quote from: kolla;827353
Should we make a point of distinguishing between what contains running binaries and what is merely content? And then make a point of distinguishing between what can be considered useful software and what is rather redundant? And then make speed/accuracy comparisons on what is left?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. May I remind you that you started counting packages as argument?  Frankly, I can only tell you from my personal use case that only a minority of programs profits from the FPU, and an even smaller amount really requires it. I cannot tell you if that's 0.2%, 1% or 5%, but it's all in the same order of magnitude, namely "negligible".
 

Offline kolla

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2017, 12:45:17 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827360
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. May I remind you that you started counting packages as argument?


It was not an argument, it was an attempt to answer the question asked - "when is an FPU really needed" - the answer is not "never".

Quote
Frankly, I can only tell you from my personal use case that only a minority of programs profits from the FPU, and an even smaller amount really requires it. I cannot tell you if that's 0.2%, 1% or 5%, but it's all in the same order of magnitude, namely "negligible".


It all depends on what software you install and use, and how you use them - the number of binaries is rather irrelevant, what is relevant is _what_ binaries, and whether the user sees a need to use those.

For example - do you want to use TV-paint? Then you need FPU.

Is TV-paint negligible? Maybe, for "most users". But so what.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2017, 04:27:38 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827360
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. May I remind you that you started counting packages as argument?  Frankly, I can only tell you from my personal use case that only a minority of programs profits from the FPU, and an even smaller amount really requires it. I cannot tell you if that's 0.2%, 1% or 5%, but it's all in the same order of magnitude, namely "negligible".

Give up with Kolla

FPU and MMU are religions

Gunnar is evil promising them (how he thinks) and now not fulfilling those promises having him bought useless piece of hardware (again his view). I asked him why he not sells the two boards he claims to have bought, then there would be two new happy user and one unhappy less and no need anymore to moan about Gunnar but it seems he not wants that. He and Matthey (both for different reasons) are on a kind of crusade against gunnar and his project. It is really a strange community...
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2017, 04:29:33 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;827359
Low blow, but you win :)

yes but he always claims that he has bought two vampire boards

why did he that? To convert down videos to watch those?

why did he not stay with UAE?

Lots of questions and no answers...
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2017, 04:46:54 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;827351
I'm a big fan of hacking 8 bit Ataris (I even have one 130XE with a 63B09 in it).
But the gpu steals cycle from the cpu in that design, making the difference between a 1 MHz "breadbox" and a 1.78 MHz Atari negligible.
That's likely true. The Atari 8-bit are an older design, and it shows in some cases. Yet, it is a fascinating design whose second edition became the Amiga.


Quote from: Iggy;827351
It is curious that the 68000 doesn't access memory any faster (just over a larger bus), what the 8 bit cpus do in one cycle, the "better" cpu takes four cycles to accomplish.
The 68000 is a fully microcoded CPU, i.e. every instruction is executed by the microcode engine and hence takes several micro-code instructions to complete.
The 6502, however, is completely hardwired silicon, and hence does more work per cycle. With the known defects the simple 6502 design caused, namely instructions with unknown side effects, unimplemented instructions and instructions that hang the CPU completely. Motorola changed this for the later members of the family, i.e. many instructions in the 68060 are also hardwired (with some errata in the early masks due to the complexity of the design).


Quote from: Iggy;827351
I kind of miss the 8 bit stuff (except for that 64K address limitation).
You can still program and run programs on the 8-bits, of course. I'm working with the ca65 assembler and the Atari++ emulator. Works quite nicely.
 

Offline David Wright

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2017, 05:15:07 PM »
Kolla my friend, you have to stop this crusade. We will get what we get, that's it.
Sell yours and come back to it later or enjoy for what it is.

I was disappointed about TV paint also. Lot's of others work well like Photogenics.
I'm still thinking at some point there will be more compatibility.

Look, we get a nice product that we enthusiastically buy and enjoy. Every so often an update comes and probably gives you a feature that makes it that much more enjoyable.

Sometimes, as in life, it's the journey not the destination.
 

Offline Iggy

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2017, 07:39:05 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827376
That's likely true. The Atari 8-bit are an older design, and it shows in some cases. Yet, it is a fascinating design whose second edition became the Amiga.
...

Absolutely, both Jay Miner at work.
And I like what the Atari community has managed to do with the 8 bit machine (which frankly appeals to me more than the STs).

Lotharek's boards are particularly interesting (especially the fpga gpu board). And like I said, I have one 130XE with a Hatachi 6809 derived cpu in it.
In some ways, like you mentioned, kind of a "Proto-Amiga".
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 09:07:37 PM by Iggy »
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