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AuthorTopic: When is an FPU chip really needed????  (Read 2958 times)

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Offline TCMSLP

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2017, 04:07:36 PM »
Quote from: kolla;827335

In addition there is a lot of software buildt for 040 and 060 where FPU is not mentioned explicitly, but is taken for granted. Also in addition is software using math libraries that are optimized for FPU. And of course commercial software that is not on Aminet.


Ah yes - I remember a heap of datatypes being available in FPU/NonFPU version too :)
A1200 50MHz 68030 16Mb, PCMCIA Ethernet, Indivision AGA MkIIcr
http://www.coherer.net Coherer: Electro!
 

Offline wiser3

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2017, 07:09:21 PM »
The Astronomy programs Distant Suns and Digital Universe don't require FPU's but will use it if available. Having the FPU makes a very noticeable difference.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2017, 07:22:55 PM »
Quote from: kolla;827335
A search on Aminet for packages that contain files with name that either contain 68881, 68882 or FPU gives you a hint about the ammount of software that benefit from FPU, if not require it.

Ok, so let's see. This search results in 178 packages of a total 81912 packages, which are about 0.2%. Ok, that's probably not accurate, let's even make this 1%. It's still a minority that really requires it. Having a FPU is probably nice, but not really required.

For development, a MMU is considerably more useful, but again, if you just look at the statistics, it's hard to guess how many developers are really left that would profit.
 

Offline Niding

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2017, 08:23:22 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827340
Ok, so let's see. This search results in 178 packages of a total 81912 packages, which are about 0.2%. Ok, that's probably not accurate, let's even make this 1%. It's still a minority that really requires it. Having a FPU is probably nice, but not really required.

For development, a MMU is considerably more useful, but again, if you just look at the statistics, it's hard to guess how many developers are really left that would profit.


http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/Eagleplayer_2.05

Shows up, and doesnt require FPU. I realise you said "benefit", but that was just a instant pick since I got that player on my Amigas.

That said, intresting commentaries from Thomas Richter.
 

Offline UberFreak

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2017, 08:29:19 PM »
Quick answer: over 90% of demo-scene productions created since the late 90's, when 040 and 060 became the standard in competitions.
If you want to enjoy the best today's demo-scene has to offer, you need an (overclocked) 060.

The "standard" compo-machine in the biggest scene event in recent years (Revision party in Germany) is an AGA Amiga with 060 CPU running at 66Mhz.
Everything created for this setup freely assumes an FPU is available.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2017, 08:57:47 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;827342
The "standard" compo-machine in the biggest scene event in recent years (Revision party in Germany) is an AGA Amiga with 060 CPU running at 66Mhz.
Everything created for this setup freely assumes an FPU is available.

Did I ever say that I do not understand this stuff? Frankly, if I want to get the most of a machine, I'll get a PC. If the competition is to get the most out of as little as possible, stick with a plain 68K at 7MHz and get creative. That is the art. Heck, even a 1.7Mhz 6502 can do interesting things if you know how to play it.
 

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2017, 09:01:59 PM »
@UberFreak

That's not a compelling argument for the Vampire getting a FPU ASAP (or a Classic user to upgrade to be honest) as most 'regular' users will just check out Amiga demos on YouTube if that scene interests them!
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline Iggy

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2017, 09:26:06 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827343
Did I ever say that I do not understand this stuff? Frankly, if I want to get the most of a machine, I'll get a PC. If the competition is to get the most out of as little as possible, stick with a plain 68K at 7MHz and get creative. That is the art. Heck, even a 1.7Mhz 6502 can do interesting things if you know how to play it.


Or slower, if you look at some of the C64 demos, but we are still talking about Amigas here, and there is no one standard for them.
Sure, '040 and '60 cpus MAY be an unfair comparisons, but they are more common than 1.7 MHz C64s (without taking the C128 into account).

As to PCs, to each his own, but the point of a demo is what you can do within the constraints of specific hardware, and a demo on a PC should be MORE impressive than on something less capable.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2017, 10:03:10 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;827345
1.7 MHz C64s

C64 ran at 1.0MHz.  Actually I think it was 1.02MHz, or something like that (6510 vs 6502), but now we're just splitting hairs.  :lol:
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
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Offline UberFreak

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2017, 10:04:00 PM »
No argument from me.
The most innovative stuff comes from the C64 scene, which is the only one I'm semi-active in.
I also agree with sticking with A500 specs. If you check last Revision's results, you'll see A500 demos are making a serious comeback :)

AGA/060 demos can be compared to early Pentium-1 demos.
Many (Most?) of them are "just" C2P based and can be easily ported to other platforms (as proven by Atari Falcon ports of TBL demos).
Still, I enjoy watching the ones that run at acceptable speed on a 50Mhz 060 and don't require overclocking (Hi, Elude...).

Quote from: Thomas Richter;827343
Did I ever say that I do not understand this stuff? Frankly, if I want to get the most of a machine, I'll get a PC. If the competition is to get the most out of as little as possible, stick with a plain 68K at 7MHz and get creative. That is the art. Heck, even a 1.7Mhz 6502 can do interesting things if you know how to play it.
 

Offline UberFreak

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2017, 10:09:22 PM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;827344
That's not a compelling argument for the Vampire getting a FPU ASAP (or a Classic user to upgrade to be honest) as most 'regular' users will just check out Amiga demos on YouTube if that scene interests them!

If I have the real HW, I dont want to have to watch demos made for it on YouTube.
Whats the point?

Heck, I only got a BPPC+BVision so I could watch a handful of demos made for this combo on the actual HW :hammer:

For me, its the real thing or nothing, regardless of platform.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 10:11:59 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;827346
C64 ran at 1.0MHz.  Actually I think it was 1.02MHz, or something like that (6510 vs 6502), but now we're just splitting hairs.  :lol:

Who's talking about the breadbox? I'm *of course* talking about the predicessor of the Amiga, the Atari 8-bit machines by Jay Miner. (-:
 

Offline Iggy

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827349
Who's talking about the breadbox? I'm *of course* talking about the predicessor of the Amiga, the Atari 8-bit machines by Jay Miner. (-:


I'm a big fan of hacking 8 bit Ataris (I even have one 130XE with a 63B09 in it).
But the gpu steals cycle from the cpu in that design, making the difference between a 1 MHz "breadbox" and a 1.78 MHz Atari negligible.
Beside, those two rely on MOS cpus, and I've always preferred real Motorola. :)

It is curious that the 68000 doesn't access memory any faster (just over a larger bus), what the 8 bit cpus do in one cycle, the "better" cpu takes four cycles to accomplish.

I kind of miss the 8 bit stuff (except for that 64K address limitation).
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kolla

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 12:05:22 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;827340
Ok, so let's see. This search results in 178 packages of a total 81912 packages

Should we make a point of distinguishing between what contains running binaries and what is merely content? And then make a point of distinguishing between what can be considered useful software and what is rather redundant? And then make speed/accuracy comparisons on what is left?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:19:58 AM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: When is an FPU chip really needed????
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2017, 12:13:28 AM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;827344
@UberFreak

That's not a compelling argument for the Vampire getting a FPU ASAP (or a Classic user to upgrade to be honest) as most 'regular' users will just check out Amiga demos on YouTube if that scene interests them!


Most regular users will also check out games on YouTube, and using UAE.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS