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Offline shoggoth

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2009, 09:59:08 PM »
Quote from: persia;519516
But can it sample a joystick at 1 KHz?


LOL * 65536! Oh noes, the horror, why did you do that!!!
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2009, 10:33:57 PM »
Quote from: Speelgoedmannetje;519570
His point was that all these aspects were put together.


The only thing you're missing out of the Apple was hardware acceleration. I suspect if you looked around you'd find UNIX boxes with all of those features and then some.

What the Amiga did was make such features that were available to high end businesses, was make it affordable to all.

And that's it.

Quote from: Speelgoedmannetje;519571
No, but if the Amiga people back then thought making a computer wouldn't make any difference in the back then computing landscape, they certainly wouldn't have made a difference indeed.
Today needs todays revolutions, not todays bugfixes.


They were commissioned to do a job. They pushed the boat out because their employers let them get away with it. Eventually, they burned through their cash and had to go cap in hand to various big name companies to desperately save the situation.

They wanted to make the best computer they could. And they succeeded. However, within a handspan of years of their achievement, the PC was technologically superior in every aspect.

Bugfixes are the difference between your product being declared great, or your product being panned as a useless hunk of crap. Revolutions are happening and will continue to happen, but it is evolution that makes it continue.

To say that the Amiga arch is in any way relevant or even to suggest that it influenced todays PCs is at best a hell of a stretch and at worst an out and out falacy.
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Offline blakespot

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2009, 03:06:11 AM »
Leander,

Apple did not have multitasking in 1984.




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Offline blakespot

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2009, 03:30:48 AM »
Look, I just spent $900 or so on a SAMiga and OS 4.1.  I do not intend to replace my main machine (Mac Pro) with it.  In truth, I believe the Mac does basically everything better than this new rig.  But this is what got me - from Ars.

Quote
Whatever the ultimate fate of AmigaOS, it has been a privilege and a joy to use it. I still use my AmigaOne on a daily basis, and consider it my "fun computer." Whenever Windows or OS X annoys me, it's right there, fast and friendly and accessible. It feels like a personal computer in ways that computers haven't felt like in over a decade.


I want something that feels like a (modern, capable) home computer.  So - is that enough reason for it to be relevant?



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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2009, 03:45:17 AM »
Quote from: blakespot;519542
I disagree.

The standard PC today (and Mac, I mention as I am a Mac user primarily) has the CPU, also an extremely powerful (often) GPU, a SATA controller that can transfer data with basically no CPU usage, and (often but less often than the powerful GPU) a sound chip that can play with little CPU usage.  Also an extremely fast bus.

One could say this follows the Amiga model.  Or it just follows what makes sense.  Not sure on that one.

Very Amiga-like, I'd say.

blakespot


SATA uses no CPU time?  In theory and spec sheets maybe.  In practice, i call BS.  The number of times I get "program x is not responding" when there is a SATA drive access is testament to that.  And look at any CPU monitor and watch the spike in CPU usage as you load stuff off your drive.  What's that about then?

So what if the busses are faster?  its all negated by the size of the files that need to be processed.  i can play a 250 k game of puyo puyo on an A500.  Its a 3.5 mb download, archived, for Windows or Linux.  Breakout is 450k on Amiga, 6 mb on Win.  And the amiga version is smoother..
 

Offline blakespot

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2009, 04:28:28 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;519602
SATA uses no CPU time?  In theory and spec sheets maybe.  In practice, i call BS.  The number of times I get "program x is not responding" when there is a SATA drive access is testament to that.  And look at any CPU monitor and watch the spike in CPU usage as you load stuff off your drive.  What's that about then?

So what if the busses are faster?  its all negated by the size of the files that need to be processed.  i can play a 250 k game of puyo puyo on an A500.  Its a 3.5 mb download, archived, for Windows or Linux.  Breakout is 450k on Amiga, 6 mb on Win.  And the amiga version is smoother..


I love Amiga. But I'll bet the 6MB ver loads faster on it than the 450K ver does on a powerful Amiga...



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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2009, 05:00:40 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;519551
Err, no. You might have a point about hardware acceleration if you discount Jay Minor's earlier works: CTIA and ANTIC. But Multitasking has been available for UNIX and GUIs came to the mainstream with Apple (which itself had Multitasking as far back at 1984).

None of which makes any difference to todays computing landscape.
t

Err no.  Apple had some rubbish called co-operative multitasking in 1988, not 1984.

the Amiga was the first affordable computer for the masses that made available pre-emptive multi-tasking in a GUI driven environment.  In 1985.  Given that no-one else had it till 1995, and not as good, I reckon thats pretty damned-impressive.

Having hardware that had graphics and sound chips that could function independently of the CPU at a time when most other computers required the CPU to be involved intimately in every task, including moving the mouse pointer, is the same philosophy used in modern PC architectures.  The amiga had it first, and showed the way
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2009, 05:04:07 AM »
Quote from: blakespot;519605
I love Amiga. But I'll bet the 6MB ver loads faster on it than the 450K ver does on a powerful Amiga...



blakespot


I'm willing to bet that it doesn't..it is up virtually instantaneously from the time i double click the icon to the start screen on an A1200 68060@40 mhz off a flash card.
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2009, 05:09:20 AM »
Quote from: blakespot;519600
Leander,

Apple did not have multitasking in 1984.


Au contraire mon ami...

Quote
From Wikipedia:

"Classic" Mac OS (1984–2001)
Main article: Mac OS history
 
Original 1984 Macintosh desktop

The "classic" Mac OS is characterized by its total lack of a command line; it is a completely graphical operating system. Noted for its ease of use and its cooperative multitasking


OS9 onwards had Preemptive multitasking.

Now, if you'd said Amiga was the first to have preemptive multitasking, you'd have been correct.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2009, 05:23:11 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;519607


Having hardware that had graphics and sound chips that could function independently of the CPU at a time when most other computers required the CPU to be involved intimately in every task, including moving the mouse pointer, is the same philosophy used in modern PC architectures.  The amiga had it first, and showed the way


I highlighted the key word in this for you, since it clearly didn't register when you wrote it.

I'll restate again what I said previously: What the Amiga did, was bring features that would otherwise only be seen in high end gear down to the consumer.

These features would have found their way onto consumer systems regardless of the Amiga due to the trickle down effect of computer engineering. Whilst you might argue that the Amiga encouraged it to come down quicker to consumer PC's quicker, that is a different argument.

But to say that this influenced the PC arch? No. Sorry. Just no. On the PC everything hangs off of  busses , which in turn all branch off from a northbridge/southbridge set (the northbridge has somewhat been subsumed by the cpu on the more recent editions of the x86 line). This was the case with the humble 286 all the way up to present day hex core monsters.

This choice allows for a highly modular and highly flexable setup in ways the Amiga simply could not compete with.  It's why the PC arch hasn't really changed all that much in all this time, sure, busses have changed, gotten faster, but the base principles and concepts haven't.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2009, 05:36:21 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;519581



They were commissioned to do a job. They pushed the boat out because their employers let them get away with it. Eventually, they burned through their cash and had to go cap in hand to various big name companies to desperately save the situation.

They wanted to make the best computer they could. And they succeeded. However, within a handspan of years of their achievement, the PC was technologically superior in every aspect.

Bugfixes are the difference between your product being declared great, or your product being panned as a useless hunk of crap. Revolutions are happening and will continue to happen, but it is evolution that makes it continue.

To say that the Amiga arch is in any way relevant or even to suggest that it influenced todays PCs is at best a hell of a stretch and at worst an out and out falacy.


Leander stop trying to re-write history.

Firstly if the engineers at Commodore were "allowed" to do what they wanted by their employers, then there's a good chance that Amiga might have survived a lot longer.  Commodore Inc, screwed up.  

There were plans in the early 1990's for hardware and software that would have extended Commodore's technological advantage and made your P100 CPU with 16 meg running Win 95 every bit the boat anchor that it was.  No amount of bug-fixes for that set up would have turned it from the horse-drawn carriage that it was, to the modern motor car that the Amiga still was.  But some illegal business practices from MS, stupidity from IBM to let the x86  patent lapse,  plus total business incompetence from Commodore, along with some smart business practices like selling cheap to the business world and subsidizing workers home computer if they ran MS crap, results in inferior technology eventually winning out.  Apple was on its knees for the same reason, and was saved by a portable music player.  

With the current iteration of Windows-yes thats still Vista in our part of the World, MS learned that users also want efficiency and control of their machines, so much so they created a new operating system to do it.  But they had to foist their usual dross onto the public, suffer the backlash, and then react.  

Conceptually, there's a lot of amiga in today's PC hardware and OS architecture. Co-processors, pre-emptive multitasking, fast boot and shut down, prioritising the user input over other tasks. The PC may go about it in a different way but the objectives are the same.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2009, 05:47:56 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;519611

This choice allows for a highly modular and highly flexable setup in ways the Amiga simply could not compete with.  It's why the PC arch hasn't really changed all that much in all this time, sure, busses have changed, gotten faster, but the base principles and concepts haven't.


you're doing it again: trying to re-write history.  Just before Commodores collapse, no-one-and I mean no-one- regarded the PC architecture of the day as being modern.  In fact it was seen as down right archaic.  The x86 hardware architecture ended up dominating that way because the patent was allowed to lapse by IBM, who themselves saw no future in the heap of junk that the x86 platform was.  No patent meant every electronics hardware factory in Taiwan could mass produce the same junk for next to nothing, and intel could keep ramping up the mhz on its CPU's to overcome many of the bottle necks that existed throughout the system.  Highly moduler and flexible, in ways the amiga simply couldn't compete?  My backside!!!  Name one thing you couldn't shove in a Zorro slot (since 1985) that let you do everything that an ISA or PCI slot let you have? And it autoconfiged. One will do.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2009, 05:56:36 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;519609
Au contraire mon ami...



OS9 onwards had Preemptive multitasking.

Now, if you'd said Amiga was the first to have preemptive multitasking, you'd have been correct.


"MultiFinder was the name of an extension software for the Apple Macintosh, introduced in System Software 5 in 1988 and included with System Software 6. It added the ability to co-operatively multitask between several applications at once – a great improvement over the previous systems, which could only run one application at a time. With the advent of System 7, MultiFinder became a standard integrated part of the operating system. It remained a part of the operating system until Mac OS X."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiFinder

right back at ya..
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2009, 07:03:37 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;519612
Leander stop trying to re-write history.


NO U.

Quote from: stefcep2;519612

Firstly if the engineers at Commodore were "allowed" to do what they wanted by their employers, then there's a good chance that Amiga might have survived a lot longer.  Commodore Inc, screwed up.  


They were comissioned to design and build a games console. They decided instead to build a full blown computer, ran out of cash. C= bought them up.

How is this rewriting history? Oh that's right, it isn't.

That Comodore couldn't organise a booze up in a brewery is besides the point.

Even before the release of the A4000, there were available for the Amiga (via zorro) both graphics and sound cards that offered far superior performance to AGA.

The writing was on the wall. Even the AAA set would have been behind the times - it was (if I remember my C.S.A.A Dave Haynie comments correctly) capable only of 16bit screenmodes whilst the PC was using 32bit chips as standard on desktops and had DSP soundcards.

Dave also pointed out that PCI slots were being looked into for precisely this reason - they would allow cheap access to powerful hardware.

Quote from: stefcep2;519612

There were plans in the early 1990's for hardware and software that would have extended Commodore's technological advantage and made your P100 CPU with 16 meg running Win 95 every bit the boat anchor that it was.


I remember a guy on here talking about how he litterally spent many hundreds getting an 060 card for his A4000, only for his brothers Pentium PC that in it's totality cost half as much run rings around it doing lightwave rendering.

Quote from: stefcep2;519612
No amount of bug-fixes for that set up would have turned it from the horse-drawn carriage that it was, to the modern motor car that the Amiga still was.  But some illegal business practices from MS, stupidity from IBM to let the x86  patent lapse,  plus total business incompetence from Commodore, along with some smart business practices like selling cheap to the business world and subsidizing workers home computer if they ran MS crap, results in inferior technology eventually winning out.  Apple was on its knees for the same reason, and was saved by a portable music player.  


Apple survive and thrive now because they offer an end to end computing experience that is seamless - Something that no one else can say they do in the general computing market. They were on their knees because it stubbornly refused to get off the PPC, yes, the iPod has been a runaway success, but be under absolutely no illusion: the move to x86 saved the computer lines.

Evolution doesn't promote "the best", it promotes "good enough". Both in terms of hardware and software, the Amiga was effectively end of life by the time AGA was released.

Quote from: stefcep2;519612

Conceptually, there's a lot of amiga in today's PC hardware and OS architecture. Co-processors, pre-emptive multitasking, fast boot and shut down, prioritising the user input over other tasks. The PC may go about it in a different way but the objectives are the same.


Because no computer ever had any of that before...

To declare pretty much all of these concepts as born of the Amiga is arrogant at best.

As for conceptually, no, the Amiga has more in common with a games console - a closed, tightly integrated system.

Quote from: stefcep2;519613
you're doing it again: trying to re-write history.


NO U.

Quote from: stefcep2;519613
Just before Commodores collapse, no-one-and I mean no-one- regarded the PC architecture of the day as being modern.  In fact it was seen as down right archaic.


And? The fact is it doesn't have to be "modern". The bebox was modern, what it has to be is flexable, it has to be cheap. And I'd say one of the biggest selling points was the lack of patents involved.

Quote from: stefcep2;519613
The x86 hardware architecture ended up dominating that way because the patent was allowed to lapse by IBM, who themselves saw no future in the heap of junk that the x86 platform was.  No patent meant every electronics hardware factory in Taiwan could mass produce the same junk for next to nothing, and intel could keep ramping up the mhz on its CPU's to overcome many of the bottle necks that existed throughout the system.  Highly moduler and flexible, in ways the amiga simply couldn't compete?  My backside!!!  


I can take a motherboard and depending on what I plug into it, use it as the basis of a Asterisk telephone exchange, any number of server configurations, a silent low power office box, hardcore gaming system or anything in between. And the key part is I can rip out non necessary parts (such as graphics chips, for instance).

All from one motherboard. And by one I mean any ATX motherboard currently in production.

As for bottlenecks. There is really only one on a modern system and thats the hard drive. Its been the only real bottleneck for the past 10 years. SATA on it's own doesn't offer any significant performance boost over PATA, what it does offer (at least in just about any board you buy today) is cheep and easy RAID. Which does boost performance.

Quote from: stefcep2;519613

Name one thing you couldn't shove in a Zorro slot (since 1985) that let you do everything that an ISA or PCI slot let you have? And it autoconfiged. One will do.


Be affordable.
Be available.

"Right back at ya"

As for the Mac, I stand corrected.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 07:20:17 AM by the_leander »
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2009, 07:49:16 AM »
The Amiga architecture is like a boat anchor on an F1 car... I'm sure it would look cool, and you could come up with 9 billion reasons why an F1 car would need half a ton of barnacle covered wrought iron bolted to the side... but at the end of the day, your F1 car is gonna suck.

Offline Raffaele

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Re: Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?
« Reply #59 from previous page: August 17, 2009, 08:40:21 AM »
Quote from: shoggoth;519559
Quote


What a sad case of wanting to believe.

What you claimed was (I quote): "Audio section of DirectX engine in Windows was taken directly by Bars&Pipes Amiga software technology.".

This is funny, because Bars and Pipes does not even have an audio engine (MIDI != audio). It's a MIDI sequencer, and unlike e.g. Cubase/Logic etc. it's MIDI only, i.e. the audio engine you refer to doesn't even exist.

(btw - the patents (and the other stuff) you referred to is related to Algorithmic Composing, which is not the same thing as an audio engine at all. It's a fact that Blue Ribbon and their patents were purchased by Microsoft, but that's about it).


Bars and Pipes was it that was, i.e. nothing than a MIDI sequencer... But the method it used for passing data and dialoguing between its modules is the key feature used into direct music and then DirectX Audio Api.

At least so it was told to me from persons who asked Todor.

Maybe they were uncorrect, but I am sure it was so.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 08:43:15 AM by Raffaele »
Que viva el Amiga!
Long Life the Amiga!
Vive l\'Amiga!
Viva Amiga!