Is the Amiga architecture still relevant today?

[alexh]

I used some ideas found in the Amiga chipset in my Set-top-box gfx core which is in tens of thousands of homes today.

The ideas behind 2D gfx manipulation, particularly sprites and blitting has not changed for decades. The Amiga did certain things very well

Mobile phones & set-top-boxes very much use yester-year technology due to price constraints and memory constraints.

[alexh]

But if you enjoy your pC today remeber that in PC world they were very inspired by Amiga technology.

Very much doubt that.

Check diagrams of A3000 motherboards and how buses were conceived. It inspired all modern PC architecture diagrams... Check diagram blocks of CD32... It is the same of Playstation1...

Erm these are industry standard schematic diagrams used for decades before and after Amiga.

Sony copied the same technology of CD32 but wisely added in Playstation vector graphics and a first 3d engine...

Rubbish. Like what? The inspiration for the technology of the PSOne was the SNES and the SuperFX chips. Sony were developing a CD addon for SNES to come out at the same time as the MegaCD when they chose to stop collaborating and make their own console. These decisions pre-date the CD32

PCI BUS technology of PCs was inspired by Amiga Zorro BUS

Again, not sure how true this is.

There is still an Amiga technology up to date and still unsurpassed: AUTOCONFIG!

If you really knew how it worked, you wouldn't say this.

Plug and Play on PCs is nowadays a very stable and relying technology but in its early days it was called PLUG AND PRAY due to its instability...

More likely due to the fact there were many different hardware platforms, all interpreting the specs slightly different. AmigaOS has the luxury of one common hardware platform.

Recognizing hardware peripherals it is the only modern techology were Amiga can teach a lesson to Peecees, because our Autoconfig System for recognizing and install on the fly hardware peripherals is still amazingly perfect... You can look at any ancient classic Amigas and take a look on how beautiful our system was....

But it had almost nothing to deal with!

PC engineers should take a look on Autoconfig so then they could improve Plug and Play technology more than usual and reach a new era even in hardware peripherals.

Or read your post, laugh and then return to their day job.

[Hammer]

A new machine with a fixed gfx processor and fixed cpu would mean that coders would have to do their very best to get the most out of it, these days however a lot of pc coders prefer to wait for faster hardware in order to get their stuff working at decent speed, it's easier than to "get the most out of it" like most Amiga coders do ....

With HD games, Xbox 360 and PS3 forces programmers to be efficient.

My laptop(with Geforce 9500M GS, which is based on H2 2007 Geforce 8600M GT) can play console ported HD games** at 720p HD and high details.

**Most PS3 and Xbox 360 games runs at 1280x720p HD.

[persia]

A new Amiga would make zero contribution to today's technology, it would be for retro enthusiasts like us, no one else.  

I have been wondering about this question for a long time now. What I mean about this question is this; in todays world, the differences between the Amiga architecure and the x86 architure still make sense? In other words if a new machine based on the Amiga architecture gets out, then is it really needed? Or?

Regards,
Sim085

[Hammer]

I have been wondering about this question for a long time now. What I mean about this question is this; in todays world, the differences between the Amiga architecure and the x86 architure still make sense? In other words if a new machine based on the Amiga architecture gets out, then is it really needed? Or?

Regards,
Sim085

My laptop is equipped with two Intel X64 and one NVIDIA CUDA** processors.

**Includes 32 stream processors at 950Mhz.

[stefcep2]

This type of question crops up more frequently than you might think.  Why is that?  Personally I don't believe its just nostalgia, and its not due to people lacking information or knowledge.  Conversely, in the PC world, many many people express dissatisfaction in one form or another. All these Amiga user and all these PC users can't all be crazy!!

And I don't think you can just narrow it down as being hardware or operating system issue. Yes thats what computers are essentially but there's something about using Amiga that makes the user experience greater than just a sum of its parts.  There's a feeling of control, responsiveness, accessability, simplicity and elegance that the amiga system gives that modern computers just quite don't have.

[stefcep2]

A new Amiga would make zero contribution to today's technology, it would be for retro enthusiasts like us, no one else.

Depends on what the "new amiga" was hypothetically going to be.

Take for example, Windows 7.  People are raving about it.  Why?  What makes it so much better than Vista that makes them say, yep, this IS better, I enjoy using it more than Vista?  The central theme of Win 7 is simple:  Be more responsive to the user, don't waste their time.  Hence : Win 7 boots faster, it shuts down faster, its UAC isn't as intrusive and annoying, it does away with annoying pop-up notifications, it uses less hardware resources and consequently runs better on lower hardware, it has a simpler shut down menu, it FEELS more responsive because it prioritises user input higher than Vista.  these ideas of simplicity, efficiency, putting the user in control are very Amiga-like.

[the_leander]

This type of question crops up more frequently than you might think.  Why is that?  Personally I don't believe its just nostalgia, and its not due to people lacking information or knowledge.  Conversely, in the PC world, many many people express dissatisfaction in one form or another. All these Amiga user and all these PC users can't all be crazy!!

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Windows, for all it's faults does a pretty reasonable job of working well enough that most people don't really think about it - they're too busy with whatever application they're using. MacOS takes this simplicity and ease of use to another level again. Linux isn't there yet, but I think things like WebOS, ChromeOS/Android, Moblin etc are good steps forward.

Amiga did a good job in it's day of making computing accessable to folk. However, it has to be said that things have moved on a very long way from Windows 3.11.

And I don't think you can just narrow it down as being hardware or operating system issue.

Why not? There are litterally tens of billions of variations of both hard and software out there. Sooner or later you're going to run into quirks.

And that is completely discounting those who really have no business operating a computer (and yes, I do mean that - imho refusing to update or maintain your system, in this day and age should come with similar penalties to those who refuse to maintain their cars). I firmly believe that something like the European Computer Drivers Licence should be manditory to have before being able to use a computer online.

Amiga that makes the user experience greater than just a sum of its parts.

This is purely subjective. Yes, the Amiga was a great machine in it's day. But I would sooner go without a computer then be forced to give up the convenience, stability and flexability that comes with a modern OS.

There's a feeling of control, responsiveness, accessability, simplicity and elegance that the amiga system gives that modern computers just quite don't have.

They also (for the most part) don't have the crash happy issues, lack of support for standards, vast overpricing (some might say gouging) of hardware upgrades and so on and so on.

Simple OS's are nice, even useful as educational tools. But a non memory protected OS, with no security has no place in an online world outside of a classroom or museum.

[DonnyEMU]

There is even more to Windows 7 than that..

DX COMPUTE

http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/partner/archive/2009/07/24/windows-7-one-step-closer.aspx

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-directx-compute-gpgpu-windows,8349.html

Quote:

"With the introduction of Windows 7, the GPU and CPU will exist in a co-processing environment where each can handle the computing task they are best suited for," wrote Chris Daniel, product manager for software at Nvidia. "The CPU is exceptionally good at performing sequential calculations, I/O, and program flow, whereas the GPU is perfectly suited for performing massive parallel calculations."

Microsoft is doing its part by putting DirectX Compute in Windows 7, so that developers can make better use of the GPU for tasks other than just graphics acceleration. Having the GPU pitch in where possible will help take the load off of the CPU so that it can focus on other tasks. The ideal end result of this is that the PC should be more responsive thanks to efficient use of processing power.

Daniel gives an example of how a GPGPU could speed up a task: "With new software designed to take advantage of this capability you would be able to copy and transcode (convert a video from one format to another – a very computationally intensive task) a movie to your MTP supported portable media device up to 5 times faster when using the GPU as a co-processor with DX Compute, as compared to only doing the processing on the CPU."

Microsoft also natively supports GPU acceleration with a new Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center for H.264 video content, most of which is encoded in high-definition formats and typically more taxing on the CPU.

"Parallel programming is the next big thing for the world of computing – it has started already," said Daniel. "DirectX Compute will accelerate this discontinuity by enabling massive parallelism to the masses. What we are talking about is co-processing— essentially using the right tool for the job."

DIRECTWRITE APIS- speeding up text rendering

http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsexperience/archive/2009/08/12/paint-net-v3-5-enhanced-for-windows-7.aspx

and much much more

[stefcep2]

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

I think you under-estimate the deep level of dissatisfaction amongst users with Vista.  When the daily papers run routine articles on it and routinly describe Vista as "underwhelming", you know its not just some of the people who are not happy.  Some of it wasn't deserved, most of it was.  There's no doubt MS fast-tracked Win 7.  And its clear that whilst new features are not a priority for Win 7, putting the user back in charge of their computer is.  I always felt that i had that with Amiga.

[stefcep2]

What we are talking about is co-processing— essentially using the right tool for the job."

And conceptually thats what the Amiga custom chip design with each chip having its own DMA were all about.  Its what allowed a 7 mhz CPU machine to achieve things higher mhz systems could only dream of.

[the_leander]

I think you under-estimate the deep level of dissatisfaction amongst users with Vista.  When the daily papers run routine articles on it and routinly describe Vista as "underwhelming", you know its not just some of the people who are not happy.  Some of it wasn't deserved, most of it was.  There's no doubt MS fast-tracked Win 7.  And its clear that whilst new features are not a priority for Win 7, putting the user back in charge of their computer is.  I always felt that i had that with Amiga.

I was talking Windows in general.

Vista is a dog, no doubt, it is the ME of this generation. XP however, for all it's faults is still the tool of choice within the computer industry. I can't think of the number of people I've helped "downgrade" from Vista.

Why? Because it works, it is fairly consistant in it's performance, it's quirks are well known. Win7 is what Vista should have been and there is very little doubt about that, imho it'll quickly take over leaving the misery that was Vista a mere memory.

Vista's single biggest issue however was the fact that it had to follow up from XP. The vast vast vast majority of complaints about Vista if you look were also being made about XP upon it's release. Difference was there, XP was following on from ME or 98 for most people (2kpro is still imho the greatest release MS ever produced).

But the simple fact remains, XP (to a lesser extent Vista) and OSX offer a far more flexible and user friendly environment then Amiga could ever hope to offer.

Windows is a very stable and capable platform in ways that the Amiga could never hope to challenge.

OSX offers a level of ease of use that nothing else even comes close to challenging.

Linux is a superb server OS and now getting to the stage where it'll be able to take on the big boys on the home computing environment (yes, I include smartphones and netbooks in this catagory too). Even now however, it offers more then AmigaOS ever could.

[Hammer]

There is even more to Windows 7 than that..

DX COMPUTE

http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/partner/archive/2009/07/24/windows-7-one-step-closer.aspx

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-directx-compute-gpgpu-windows,8349.html

Quote:

"With the introduction of Windows 7, the GPU and CPU will exist in a co-processing environment where each can handle the computing task they are best suited for," wrote Chris Daniel, product manager for software at Nvidia. "The CPU is exceptionally good at performing sequential calculations, I/O, and program flow, whereas the GPU is perfectly suited for performing massive parallel calculations."

Microsoft is doing its part by putting DirectX Compute in Windows 7, so that developers can make better use of the GPU for tasks other than just graphics acceleration. Having the GPU pitch in where possible will help take the load off of the CPU so that it can focus on other tasks. The ideal end result of this is that the PC should be more responsive thanks to efficient use of processing power.

Daniel gives an example of how a GPGPU could speed up a task: "With new software designed to take advantage of this capability you would be able to copy and transcode (convert a video from one format to another – a very computationally intensive task) a movie to your MTP supported portable media device up to 5 times faster when using the GPU as a co-processor with DX Compute, as compared to only doing the processing on the CPU."

Microsoft also natively supports GPU acceleration with a new Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center for H.264 video content, most of which is encoded in high-definition formats and typically more taxing on the CPU.

"Parallel programming is the next big thing for the world of computing – it has started already," said Daniel. "DirectX Compute will accelerate this discontinuity by enabling massive parallelism to the masses. What we are talking about is co-processing— essentially using the right tool for the job."

DIRECTWRITE APIS- speeding up text rendering

http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsexperience/archive/2009/08/12/paint-net-v3-5-enhanced-for-windows-7.aspx

and much much more

http://www.geeks3d.com/20090416/directx11-allows-directx10-hardware-to-execute-compute-shader/
http://www.nvidia.com/object/directcompute.html


Directx11 allows directx 10 hardware to execute Compute Shader 4.

[shoggoth]

No Amiga architecture is no more relevant today...
But if you enjoy your pC today remeber that in PC world they were very inspired by Amiga technology.

No, not really no.

Check diagrams of A3000 motherboards and how buses were conceived. It inspired all modern PC architecture diagrams...

No, not really no.

Check diagram blocks of CD32... It is the same of Playstation1...

Sony copied the same technology of CD32 but wisely added in Playstation vector graphics and a first 3d engine...

These platforms have absolutely nothing in common no.

PCI BUS technology of PCs was inspired by Amiga Zorro BUS

Not really, no.

Audio section of DirectX engine in Windows was taken directly by Bars&Pipes Amiga software technology.

HAHA No, not at all, no.

There is still an Amiga technology up to date and still unsurpassed:

AUTOCONFIG!

Still unsurpassed? Do you know how PCI works? There have been autoconfig-capable busses both before and after Zorro, you know..

Plug and Play on PCs is nowadays a very stable and relying technology but in its early days it was called PLUG AND PRAY due to its instability...

You're talking about ISA Plug and Play, which has *nothing* to do with the autoconfiguration capabilities of the PCI bus (and later incarnations of it).

Recognizing hardware peripherals it is the only modern techology were Amiga can teach a lesson to Peecees, because our Autoconfig System for recognizing and install on the fly hardware peripherals is still amazingly perfect... You can look at any ancient classic Amigas and take a look on how beautiful our system was....

The Amiga was a beautiful solution, but it doesn't cure cancer.

PC engineers should take a look on Autoconfig so then they could improve Plug and Play technology more than usual and reach a new era even in hardware peripherals.

You seem to be stuck in 1995.

(edit: fixed quotes + typo)

[Hammer]

(SNIP)

Sony copied the same technology of CD32 but wisely added in Playstation vector graphics and a first 3d engine...

Intel i860 (80860)** RISC/VLIW CPU+3D combo predates Sony's PS1 3D engine. Intel i860's 64bit SIMD design later influenced Pentium's 64bit MMX SIMD extensions.

**Intel i860 was used as geometry graphics accelerator for SGI's Onyx Reality Engine 2.
Intel i860 was first released in 1989. Intel will attempt to re-enter the discrete GPU market with Intel Larrabee(loosely based on Pentium I but with 512bit SIMD and many-core format).

[Karlos]

I think you under-estimate the deep level of dissatisfaction amongst users with Vista.

It's horses for courses, really. I have Vista x64 simply to provide a DX10 gaming environment. It does that job very well indeed.